Iowa FTW

[odeon]

So what is wrong with what he is saying? Explain.

I'm not sure that you understand this. If they were God they could have moral rights being above the rights of humans and thus logically have a right to rule, but they are not God.

We've been through this a number of times, Lit, and never agree on any of it. I've commented on some of it and others have commented on other bits. I'm not interested in doing any of it again so you'll either have to live with it or use the search function.

You know that I am logically right but you still think "But it won't work without governments and laws".

Because I am right. When kings and emperors said that they had a right to rule because God had given them their power, this was a logically flawless argument, given the premiss that God exists. But if God doesn't exist and can't give human beings the right to rule in his place, no one has a right to rule, and that is pure logic.

::sigh::

Again, I'm not interested in arguing any of this. Don't put words in my mouth or tell me what my opinions are--you don't know and I'm not interested in telling you.

I should know better than to engage in the silliness apparent in this thread. I started the bloody thing but I rather regret doing so. It never leads anywhere.

Be as it may, I do think it's wildly amusing that you lot always claim to know what we (Adam, me, and basically anyone who have differing opinions) think. It is an interesting debating technique. Not wildly successful but interesting, and amusing in that unintentionally comical way.

[TheoK]

Be as it may, I do think it's wildly amusing that you lot always claim to know what we (Adam, me, and basically anyone who have differing opinions) think. It is an interesting debating technique. Not wildly successful but interesting, and amusing in that unintentionally comical way.

But it's so obvious. The thought of free guns makes you feel uncomfortable, despite obvious facts like:

1) You can't defend yourself against a robber, burglar, rapist etc who is physically stronger or armed himself.
2) You can't defend yourself from something like what is happening in Syria.

 

[odeon]

Oh, and as an aside:

There are people here who have very different opinions on guns than I do, but who never put words in my mouth, try to explain to me what my opinions really are and why.

Them I would debate the matter with, because with them, a nuanced discussion is possible. I don't claim to always be right, but I do have opinions and I do know what they are. With people who realise this, a discussion is possible and welcomed.

In other words, respect my opinions and I'll respect yours.

[Semicolon]

[McGiver]

the most ignorant meme ever.  Our government operates under a system of checks and balances....ideally.
Really it is just a bureaucratic monster where not one knows what the other is doing.
I suspect, if we are arming the rebels, it is the CIA.  Obama, i suspect, has very little to say about their day to day operations.

[RageBeoulve]

the most ignorant meme ever.  Our government operates under a system of checks and balances....ideally.
Really it is just a bureaucratic monster where not one knows what the other is doing.
I suspect, if we are arming the rebels, it is the CIA.  Obama, i suspect, has very little to say about their day to day operations.

It really looks like a leftover from the bush administration like with the patriot act. Oblamo is perfectly aware of all the spying, so I seriously doubt he was oblivious to all the shenanigans going on in the middle east. I don't know why you are so hellbent on excusing the guy. Because he's black?

[RageBeoulve]

Are politicians, officials, cops and soldiers superior beings vs. other human beings? If not, they logically have no right to decide what others should do and not.

Though it seems like people who haven't studied philosophy don't understand that it must be like this.

This is the bottom line. There is no higher level, morally superior human being. There just isn't. Governments and the like are unfortunately comprised of human beings, and they are subject to the same greed and corruption that we are. As they are in positions of power, they are actually more vulnerable to these. This means they must also be held accountable for their actions and allowing government complete power over you is a childish mistake. The people of all nations must be prepared to topple their governments if they overstep their authority.

This world some think they can build where there are no ouchy people and no naughty weapons, and government tucks you in every night like mommy and daddy? Its never going to happen. Government is going to fuck your ass if you make yourself too vulnerable, because they are humans.

[RageBeoulve]

Did we hurt your precious feelings by pointing out some of the problems your country is faced with? Poor thing.

No actually. Its just redundant that you speak repeatedly with almost no knowledge of the issue. When is the last time you visited my country? What do you really know of it's history and laws?

Maybe you should contribute to the field, then, because the people who actually do the research don't know.

I'd eat my hat if they really didn't know. Its just that they don't have enough evidence to write a publication.

You do realise that we have lives outside this place? I, for example, tend to open this thread only in the mornings, when drinking my morning coffee, knowing that headway can't be made.

So?

You and Lit only rarely allow anyone's arguments to affect yours, and never when guns are discussed.

You have to defeat my points to affect my argument, especially when you attempt to attack parts of my country's constitution. I know you didn't start that, Adam did. But you had no problem with joining him in it.

Lit will call us brainwashed and you will make the whole thing to be about your country.

Well, you were the one saying "murricans'" a bunch of times. That word does mean the United States, right? Snap!

And there's TA who will echo your sentiments.

He agrees with me. Would you like a gun to shoot him with?

So decide what you want. It won't magically make it true.

I feel exactly the same way, pardner.

Do try to stay on topic, please.

Hah. Hard to swallow ain't it? The numbers don't favor your view, and I have a stack of em for you if you're interested in a bit of reality.

So if you are unemployed, you don't have a right to health care unless you use the gun to force it?

No, you get off your ass and get a job.

How do you manage to so completely miss my point? Deliberately?

No, you missed mine.

Feelings? What feelings?

You are not making any sense. Want to try again?

You feel the world would be better without firearms, don't you?

You're not handling me at all, mate. Takes a lot more than the above

Just because you say so doesn't make it true. You are not defeating my arguments, the thread is slowing down, and you're beginning to resort to one sentence quips. Looks a lot like things are in my favor, here.

Unlike you, I back up my numbers. You just seem to invent yours

I was talking to adam there, sir. And the only time you used numbers, I destroyed them with some of my own.

[McGiver]

the most ignorant meme ever.  Our government operates under a system of checks and balances....ideally.
Really it is just a bureaucratic monster where not one knows what the other is doing.
I suspect, if we are arming the rebels, it is the CIA.  Obama, i suspect, has very little to say about their day to day operations.

It really looks like a leftover from the bush administration like with the patriot act. Oblamo is perfectly aware of all the spying, so I seriously doubt he was oblivious to all the shenanigans going on in the middle east. I don't know why you are so hellbent on excusing the guy. Because he's black?

because you're white?

[Adam]

You don't need to say it. The fact that you want so badly to change the U.S. constitution to make you feel good is proof enough. Don't feel too bad, hater. Our president hates us too.

I "so badly want to change the US constitution"? Really?
Well, personally I feel you'd be better off with stricter gun laws, yes. And if I lived there I would want that to be the case. I wouldn't say I "so badly want to change the US constitution" though.

Not to me. If you want the finer things in life, you should be willing to roll up them sleeves.

Wow. That kind of attitude actually disgusts me.

But not this time. Your intolerance of Lit and I having an exchange about the second amendment and how things work in the U.S. overcame you.

I posted a reply to a conversation on an internet forum and that makes me intolerant? And yes, of course my reply was about the US - you were TALKING ABOUT THE U.S. ALREADY.

If you cared enough, you'd have a stack of papers on it by now. I have tons of information which supports the opposing argument, and I use it all the time. But hey, to each his own.

Didn't I already say I DON'T care enough though? It's fortunately not an issue which really affects me, as we don't really do guns here. So yeah, out of all the issues I care about, gun control isn't one I'm going to spend my life compiling stacks of research on. Sure, I look into the facts and read up on it. But not obsessively.

Well if that's not your intent then get your nose out of my constitution, boy.

I'm not changing your constitution, am I? I'm discussing something on an internet forum...

[Adam]

So if you are unemployed, you don't have a right to health care unless you use the gun to force it?

No, you get off your ass and get a job.

Wow. This just shows you really are clueless, Rage

[odeon]

Did we hurt your precious feelings by pointing out some of the problems your country is faced with? Poor thing.

No actually. Its just redundant that you speak repeatedly with almost no knowledge of the issue. When is the last time you visited my country? What do you really know of it's history and laws?

I did hurt your precious feelings, didn't I? It's a problem to you when we highlight some of the issues your country is faced with, isn't it? You become all defensive.

Maybe you should contribute to the field, then, because the people who actually do the research don't know.

I'd eat my hat if they really didn't know. Its just that they don't have enough evidence to write a publication.

Doesn't stop you from claiming things and calling it common sense. Go for that paper. Or prepare your hat.

You do realise that we have lives outside this place? I, for example, tend to open this thread only in the mornings, when drinking my morning coffee, knowing that headway can't be made.

So?

So you claimed you defeated Adam because he didn't reply to you quickly enough. If you have problems reading things in context, don't remove the context.

You and Lit only rarely allow anyone's arguments to affect yours, and never when guns are discussed.

You have to defeat my points to affect my argument, especially when you attempt to attack parts of my country's constitution. I know you didn't start that, Adam did. But you had no problem with joining him in it.

There you are with your precious feelings again. Is your constitution sacred, somehow? You mad, bro?

Lit will call us brainwashed and you will make the whole thing to be about your country.

Well, you were the one saying "murricans'" a bunch of times. That word does mean the United States, right? Snap!

The word is 'mericans. Don't make this to be about your feelings.

And there's TA who will echo your sentiments.

He agrees with me. Would you like a gun to shoot him with?

I realise you tend to see guns as a solution but I'll just ignore him. Easier.

So decide what you want. It won't magically make it true.

I feel exactly the same way, pardner.

We seem to be making some headway, then. I'm glad you realise your decisions are subjective.

Do try to stay on topic, please.

Hah. Hard to swallow ain't it? The numbers don't favor your view, and I have a stack of em for you if you're interested in a bit of reality.

The numbers I presented did. Probably why you ignored them. Reality is a bitch, isn't it?

So if you are unemployed, you don't have a right to health care unless you use the gun to force it?

No, you get off your ass and get a job.

This comment is so clueless it's astonishing. Makes me wonder if you have any idea of you country's actual problems.

How do you manage to so completely miss my point? Deliberately?

No, you missed mine.

My dad is stronger than your dad.

Feelings? What feelings?

You are not making any sense. Want to try again?

You feel the world would be better without firearms, don't you?

I *think* the world would be better without firearms.

You're not handling me at all, mate. Takes a lot more than the above

Just because you say so doesn't make it true. You are not defeating my arguments, the thread is slowing down, and you're beginning to resort to one sentence quips. Looks a lot like things are in my favor, here.

Just because you say so doesn't make it true. You are not defeating my arguments, the thread is slowing down, and you're beginning to resort to one sentence quips. Looks a lot like things are in my favor, here.

Unlike you, I back up my numbers. You just seem to invent yours

I was talking to adam there, sir. And the only time you used numbers, I destroyed them with some of my own.

You invented numbers, from the looks of it. Back them up and I might take them more seriously.

[Jesse]

The baby boomers are almost dead.

Thank fucking god. 

[TA]

And there's TA who will echo your sentiments.

I'll address this since my name was bought up.

I usually don't stay in these debates for very long because it boils down to the simple fact that people like you and Adam are of the opinion that another's rights end where your feelings begin. Do you have a right to have that opinion? Yes. Do I have to agree with it? No.

[TheoK]

Oh, I posted these two quotes here years ago, but I think it's time to post them again:

"Ordinary people don't need guns. The state will give them the protection that they need."
- Heinrich Himmler

"The people should not only be trained and disciplined but also have enough arms and ammunition to defeat any possible enemy, including their own government."
- Thomas Jefferson

Something for odeon and Adam to consider.