Iowa FTW

[Adam]

I dont see how that quote from odeon suggests he hates amerca

[TheoK]

He doesn't like their freedoms, though (the ones that they still have).

[RageBeoulve]

I dont see how that quote from odeon suggests he hates amerca

I didn't say he hated America. I said he holds contempt for my country and its laws. I swear people, this is like pulling teeth.

con·tempt


/kənˈtem(p)t/


noun

noun: contempt



1.



the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.


"he showed his contempt for his job by doing it very badly"


synonyms: scorn, disdain, disrespect, scornfulness, contemptuousness, 

that quote from odeon

I also made it clear that he talked about " 'merica" and "its constitution" several times. I can produce more than just that quote. In fact I also made it clear that he only "admitted" that he didn't hate my country once. I never said he hated my country, I said he felt this about how we do things, and the laws we think are important:

the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn

One more time, I also made it very clear that he doesn't live here early on in the thread, so I seriously doubt he even understands our culture anyway. I don't know why I've made such an effort to try and help him understand to be totally honest. 

[McGiver]

Oh!

[DirtDawg]

This should be especially highlighted:

What, then, is legislation? It is an assumption by one man, or body of men, of absolute, irresponsible dominion over all other men whom they call subject to their power. It is the assumption by one man, or body of men, of a right to subject all other men to their will and their service. It is the assumption by one man, or body of men, of a right to abolish outright all the natural rights, all the natural liberty of all other men; to make all other men their slaves; to arbitrarily dictate to all other men what they may, and may not, do; what they may, and may not, have; what they may, and may not, be. It is, in short, the assumption of a right to banish the principle of human rights, the principle of justice itself, from off the earth, and set up their own personal will, pleasure, and interest in its place. All this, and nothing less, is involved in the very idea that there can be any such thing as human legislation that is obligatory upon those upon whom it is imposed.

This is what legislation is really about. Denying you your real rights.

Sorry, Tig, but I am beginning to think, AGAIN:

HANGMAN ROPE SNEAK, DEADLY GANGSTER, BRAIN ON THE MOON, COMPUTER GOD shit about you.

Are you taking your meds?

[odeon]

But you are talking against yourself. You have said that you have little faith in democracy and that you think that politicians break the laws, are corrupted etc. Or you still mean that this corrupted system with enormous nation states is better than a system with small anarchistic societies with a few hundred persons in each would be? Strange. In a society with 500 members the control is of course much greater than in a nation state with 10 millions or 300 millions or one billion.

Yes.

[odeon]

Odeon, you are only able to produce one statement where you "admit" you don't want to see my country crumble. However peppered throughout this thread, are statements like this.

right granted to you in 'merica (fuck yeah) by the constitution

My country and its laws. You don't have to like the laws that govern our government because you are not a citizen here. I can produce more quotes like this by the way. One statement saying "please don't think I dislike your country or its constitution" doesn't make everything else you say about it non-existent. That's like when some dude says "with all due respect" then says something blatantly disrespectful after it, as if saying with all due respect is a license to fuck with people. 

I am criticising your constitution and your laws, not your country or its people. My comment above makes a reference to the (far more) good-natured fun in the America fuck yeah thread, which I hoped you might get, but I guess not. I'm sorry you are being such a sensitive little flower.

[odeon]

I dont see how that quote from odeon suggests he hates amerca

I didn't say he hated America. I said he holds contempt for my country and its laws. I swear people, this is like pulling teeth.

con·tempt


/kənˈtem(p)t/


noun

noun: contempt



1.



the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.


"he showed his contempt for his job by doing it very badly"


synonyms: scorn, disdain, disrespect, scornfulness, contemptuousness, 

that quote from odeon

I also made it clear that he talked about " 'merica" and "its constitution" several times. I can produce more than just that quote. In fact I also made it clear that he only "admitted" that he didn't hate my country once. I never said he hated my country, I said he felt this about how we do things, and the laws we think are important:

I think what you said re me was something in the vein of "I can almost smell your contempt for us".

Which I then denied to be the case. I also reminded you that I have clarified this before, because it is something I thought to be important enough to be mentioned.

Why "'merica" would be insulting I quite frankly don't know. Perhaps you can explain.

the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn

One more time, I also made it very clear that he doesn't live here early on in the thread, so I seriously doubt he even understands our culture anyway. I don't know why I've made such an effort to try and help him understand to be totally honest. 

I didn't know one has to live in 'merica to be allowed to criticise its constitution. I've seen you discuss the rest of the world, yet I'm pretty sure you've never lived anywhere outside the US. What's the difference, in your opinion?

[odeon]

I dont see how that quote from odeon suggests he hates amerca

My guess is that outsiders aren't allowed to criticise it, only praise it.  /shrugs

[DirtDawg]

Driving is a privilege, not a right. Owning a firearm is a right, and all rights must be granted to all citizens. All people are created equal.

This is where we disagree. I don't see owning a firearm as a right any more than I see owning a nuke as a right.

To me, saying that a blind person can't own a gun is like having a citizen pass a test before being allowed to vote. Would letting people with who fail vote lead to a decrease in the quality of elections? Even if so, it wouldn't be sufficient reason to deny them their rights. If there are preconditions on who can exercise universal rights, then they aren't universal rights anymore.

Considering the quality of the voting population, I think you are on to something here.

But seriously, owning a gun is not a universal right. You may regard it as a right granted to you in 'merica (fuck yeah) by the constitution, but it is not a universal right.

The way I see it, you also have the right to own a gun. Your system just doesn't acknowledge it. I don't regard it as right granted to me by the Constitution; as I've mentioned, I have the right regardless of what the Constitution says.

Exactly. And as I said: if he doesn't believe in universal rights, he can't believe in rights at all. If there exists anything like rights, they have nothing to do with legislation.

The only RIGHT legislation any state should be allowed to make are those which directly protect all of the states' citizenry from abuses by the state itself. Otherwise, what is the reason any thinking body of people would have for joining a state of any sort.

Getting down to brass tacks, though; even a simple union of home owners in a certain area may have desires for the "union" that do not protect specific rights of each owner. They may decide that no home can have vegetables in the front yard, for reasons of appearance for instance, thus violating the universal right of a home owner to use his land as he sees fit. Even in this one simple instance a "so called" state can fail to meet the demands of ALL its citizenry.

The notion of Universal Rights is in question from the outset!

Take this example to the level of trying to govern hundreds of millions of people under one rule almost makes anarchy seem more desirable.

 


... or not.

I am well armed, in either case.

[DirtDawg]

I dont see how that quote from odeon suggests he hates amerca

My guess is that outsiders aren't allowed to criticise it, only praise it.  /shrugs

Honestly, speaking as a "proud 'merican,"  it has often been the praise of outsiders (whose money we wanted to flow onto our shores) that has caused us to continually overstep our borders, acting as the world's police force.

"Never let the $$$ stop!!"

I sometimes wonder what we could have made of ourselves if we had just said, "NO!" more often (to both outsiders and ourselves) and kept our own $$$ at home to support each other, instead of propping up half the world artificially.

I can only think of a few examples where a "democracy intent"  has successfully replaced tyranny.

 

[TheoK]

But you are talking against yourself. You have said that you have little faith in democracy and that you think that politicians break the laws, are corrupted etc. Or you still mean that this corrupted system with enormous nation states is better than a system with small anarchistic societies with a few hundred persons in each would be? Strange. In a society with 500 members the control is of course much greater than in a nation state with 10 millions or 300 millions or one billion.

Yes.

Narrow-minded.

[Pyraxis]

Yeah I'm with DirtDawg on the point about corrupt and petty neighborhood associations. In one place, we had people pissed off because we painted green trim on our house. Forest green trim alongside beige siding and a brown roof, for crying out loud. It's not like it was fuscia. Though I love bright colors on houses. But they wanted everything in some shade of beige or grey or white.

Ugh.

[RageBeoulve]

Yeah I'm with DirtDawg on the point about corrupt and petty neighborhood associations. In one place, we had people pissed off because we painted green trim on our house. Forest green trim alongside beige siding and a brown roof, for crying out loud. It's not like it was fuscia. Though I love bright colors on houses. But they wanted everything in some shade of beige or grey or white.

Ugh.

You know what to tell em.

[RageBeoulve]

I didn't know one has to live in 'merica to be allowed to criticise its constitution. I've seen you discuss the rest of the world, yet I'm pretty sure you've never lived anywhere outside the US. What's the difference, in your opinion?

VERY RARELY, have I criticized other cultures, or their laws. And only when they affect citizens of mine directly. I have very often and quite aggressively been critical of my own country and its actions in other countries though. And I have been critical of the general hatred for my country.

That's the difference.