'GO HOME' vans to fight immigration

[Jack]

Its both, in equal measures. Protectionism is so much more socially acceptable, and so a closet racist will dress their racism up as protectionism.
A common statement from a closet racist might be, "I'm not racist, but I cant stand those foreigners coming over here, and stealing our jobs."

Even the BNP (British National Party,) who are a true racist party, far beyond even UKIP, try to dress their racism up as protectionism. Im sure they even promoted some guy who had an Asian wife, into a high position, just to show how non-racist they are.






On a slightly different point, its important to remember that the UK is not one country, but a union of two countries, plus several other entities. Attitudes vary across the different parts of UK.

The South of England is a very over-populated place, and a lot of their anti-immigration feelings are possibly protectionist. House prices are high, and its often hard for average families to live there. I think they have some justification in feeling annoyed that foreigners are coming over, and jumping the housing queue, and pushing up rents.

Scotland is a lot less densely populated, with large, virtually empty tower blocks or estates to put the immigrants into. Property prices are low in Scotland, and Scotland's pretty relaxed about immigration. I think many Scots feel that immigrants help the economy by taking jobs that the locals dont want, and the fact that they spend their money in Scotland further boosts the economy, creating jobs.
The vast majority of the property I own is in Scotland, and I find immigrants a godsend. They revitalize dying areas, or at least stop the areas from dying. They also fill up properties that might otherwise be empty. They help to keep the rental market from falling.

Northern Ireland is a total basket case. It has loads of housing lying empty with plummeting house prices and rent, lots of shop units lying empty, and businesses are struggling to make money. It could really use more people to bolster the economy, but the people of N.Ireland are just totally racist. They are generally too ignorant to realize how much they need immigration, and just hate the thought of anyone different to them living here.

Sounds like Scotland could use some positive propaganda. If that's right, it seems odd immigrants seeking asylum aren't encouraged, if not instructed, to settle in places more fitting.

['Butterflies']

Sounds like Scotland could use some positive propaganda. If that's right, it seems odd immigrants seeking asylum aren't encouraged, if not instructed, to settle in places more fitting.

Scotland is fine with immigrants, and the propaganda in Scotland is fairly pro-immigration. It's N.Ireland that needs the positive propaganda.

I totally agree about immigrants being encouraged to live in more suitable places. Shoehorning more and more immigrants into the South of England is a recipe for disaster.
I think it would be great to just ignore the idiots in N.Ireland, and bring over a lot of unwanted immigrants from England.
Thing is though, the politicians who run N.Ireland are the biggest bigots of them all, and they won't allow it

[Jack]

I totally agree about immigrants being encouraged to live in more suitable places. Shoehorning more and more immigrants into the South of England is a recipe for disaster.

Then again, the government might rather them thinly dispersed, so they don't cluster. They'll be more likely to assimilate to western culture, if they don't form their own little communities in empty areas of the continent. Sorry, that's my global conspiracy viewpoint talking.

[Adam]

If anything we've had the opposite - government encouraging that.

And it has been a disaster, yes

You get communities full of immigrants and second generation immigrants, and they're always placed in the shitty run-down areas with the most crime.

[bodie]

Can I just say about the difference between immigrants and illegal immigrants.

Every year,  figures predict about 500'000 will arrive in the UK.  These are not all illegal immigrants.  Some will have European Union status.  Some will apply for citizenship (this has been made more and more difficult) some will be students and granted temporary permits.  Some will be Asylum seekers.   Only a very small minority will be illegal.   These are very vulnerable groups of people who have gone to great lengths just to arrive here.

http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/blog/it-happens-here-the-shocking-reality-of-modern-slavery-in-the-uk

It Happens Here: the shocking reality of modern slavery in the UK

The Centre for Social Justice this week published its report on the tragedy and scandal of modern slavery in the UK. It reveals a hidden world of appalling exploitation of some of society’s weakest and most vulnerable, and calls on the Government to take a much more direct and aspirational lead on fighting this crime. It is too easy for the UK to be self-congratulating about its abolition legacy, but the CSJ has found that this historic ‘Wilberforce reputation’ rings tragically hollow today.

During the course of this 18-month review we have taken evidence from hundreds of people including police officers, social workers, NGO staff, local and national government officials and business leaders. Steered by our Working Group of experts from the Metropolitan Police, the voluntary sector, the legal profession and academia, our search to uncover the hidden disgrace of modern slavery took us all over the UK and abroad. We met with victims who shared stories of unimaginable brutality and violence. We met one victim who was trafficked by a Romanian gang, forced to work like a slave and to live in a shed on his captor’s property.He described the unthinkable abuse he was subjected to before he was able to escape.

The scale of this problem is unknown; Government figures suggesting that over 2,000 people were victims of human trafficking in 2011 are the tip of the iceberg.

The Government’s claim that the measures it has in place to tackle slavery are adequate is a depressing reflection of the lack of ambition from our country’s leaders.

Our report, It Happens Here, sets out a number of key recommendations, shaped by our evidence, to inspire the UK to take a radical new approach to this crime and create an environment which is hostile to perpetrators and compassionate to victims.

The appointment of an Anti-Slavery Commissioner is top of the agenda: someone to bring consistency of leadership (the remit of this problem currently sits with the Immigration Minister; there have been nine different Ministers since 1999), to hold government to account and to highlight the areas where the UK can and must improve its response.

The CSJ has been shocked by the pervasive misunderstanding of modern slavery as an issue of immigration; too often vulnerable victims of modern slavery who have been trafficked from abroad are treated first as illegal immigrants. This misunderstanding permeates the UK’s response, from government, to local authorities to police; the CSJ has heard evidence of victims of modern slavery being arrested and imprisoned for immigration offences. In one case, a victim only told of her experience of modern slavery when she was in detention, having been too terrified to disclose her story earlier; she was still detained for over four months before she was given any form of support.

Treating modern slavery as an immigration problem is wrong, unfair, and utterly counter to a victim-centred approach. The UK Border Agency plays far too prominent a role in deciding whether someone has been trafficked into modern slavery; we recommend that this involvement is urgently decreased.

A radical overhaul of support for survivors of this abuse is a third major recommendation. Reintegration and the rebuilding of lives must be an absolute priority; the current system puts far too little emphasis on outcomes for survivors, and must be vastly improved if these individuals are to be given a second chance at an independent, secure and self-sufficient life.
The CSJ works to give voice to the most marginalised in our communities, putting social justice at the heart of the British political system to create a society where nobody is left behind. Victims of modern slavery are some of the most faceless, voiceless, helpless people we have in the country. It is time to give them a voice.

My point is many of these 'illegal immigrants'  (even the term itself promotes hostility)  are sadly treated as slaves.  It is the people who are exploiting these people who are raping the tax system.

[Jack]

It really is terrible that they're being taken advantage. It's hard to understand why there are illegals, who have gone to great lengths to arrive and can go no further. Why are they not granted asylum/temporary permits?

[Adam]

Because then we'd effectively have open doors

And that would never go down well

[TheoK]

In Sweden they grant illegal immigrants permanent permits. It really doesn't go down well. Well, down it goes 

[Jesse]

Considering we all have to live on planet earth, why should anybody "go home?" I guess what I'm really getting at is people have to live somewhere. they say the same thing to homeless people but instead of 'go home' its 'get a home.' When will people just leave others alone and let people actually live?

[RageBeoulve]

GO HOME Is the message!   
It is part of a new campaign to clamp down on illegal immigrants in the UK.

Is it dumb?

My thoughts
1.  Can the majority of illegal immigrants read English that well?
2.  The ones that can,  how many do you think are going to follow the instructions and go home?
3.  At £15K  per van they are not going to be cost effective.
4.  Was there a similar campaign used by Nazi's just before WWII with a similar go home message.  It could be offensive to holocaust survivors.
5.  Considering some of these people have been threatened and maybe tortured and have possibly had a terrible journey getting here,  are they really going to be worried by a van?
6.  People get confused between immigrants and illegal immigrants.  I have often heard "bloody illegal immigrants coming here and taking our jobs and claiming benefit"  This is simply not true.  Yes there are many valid immigrants who work or claim benefit.  Illegal immigrants fall under the radar and simply can't claim benefits or work legitimately.
7.  Illegal immigrants are often employed by unscrupulous people to work as slaves.  They are not free.  They get paid a pittance.  Their quality of life is poor. They are victims. 
8.  If the government feel the need to 'target' someone,  I feel they should be targeting these people who harbour illegal immigrants just so they get cheap labour.

Well OK but how to 'deal' with the problem of immigration, then?  First problem is there are no current figures.  Only estimates on how many UK residents emigrate and how many migrants are entering - legit or not.  The government admit their own figures are not fit for purpose.  I personally feel this government is obsessed with lowering net migration figures.  It is bizarre then, that the figures are just very blunt estimates anyway.  Instead of spending money on vans telling illegal immigrants to 'go home' i feel the money should be spent on devising a more accurate system of recording data.  Many citizens here are completely unaware that the 515'000 migrants and 352'000 emigrants figure per year is not an accurate recording but just guesswork.  Yet these figures are often used by UKip and the tories to scare people into thinking that the floodgates are open.

An 'amnesty' has been suggested.  Not sure if this would be acceptable to a lot of the public who blindly believe certain politicians and tory rag newspapers.

However, it would be a tool to prosecute people who benefit the system by exploiting these people for cheap labour.

Slavery, even in it's most mildest form is something that belongs in history books.

[TheoK]

Considering we all have to live on planet earth, why should anybody "go home?" I guess what I'm really getting at is people have to live somewhere. they say the same thing to homeless people but instead of 'go home' its 'get a home.' When will people just leave others alone and let people actually live?

You are basically right, but as long as we have this system, illegal immigrants cost money and resources.

[RageBeoulve]

You think that's bad, soaf? Check this out. America has an actual clone of Nazi Germany's gestapo now.

http://nsi.ncirc.gov/resources.aspx

^No lie.

[Jack]

Because then we'd effectively have open doors

And that would never go down well

It appears the doors are open; half a million people per year, yet only a small minority are illegal. ~That's what she said.  I assume it's probably much harder for some people from outside the UK to enter, those people who aren't seeking asylum. Is there a common factor among the majority of the illegals? Why don't those few fill the criteria? I can't see any reason for anyone to be there illegally, unless they're criminals or possibly lazy about the rules followed to be there legally.

['Butterflies']

Because then we'd effectively have open doors

And that would never go down well

It appears the doors are open; half a million people per year, yet only a small minority are illegal. ~That's what she said.  I assume it's probably much harder for some people from outside the UK to enter, those people who aren't seeking asylum. Is there a common factor among the majority of the illegals? Why don't those few fill the criteria? I can't see any reason for anyone to be there illegally, unless they're criminals or possibly lazy about the rules followed to be there legally.

I can't find the exact rules, and TBH, I dont really know the rules myself. They are something like this though:

All members of the European Economic Area can move freely within Europe. That means that many Eastern Europeans can freely enter Britain. Some people are annoyed that people from poor countries like Bulgaria can freely move to Britain.

Most people from outwith Europe must apply for a visa. I think there are different types of visa. Some types only allow you to stay a short time, and not allow you to work or claim benefits. Others allow you to stay long-term, and to work and claim benefits.
Its easy to get a visitors visa, that allows you to come to Britain for a short time. Many people come on a visitors visa, and just never leave, often working illegally. Its harder to get a long-term visa that allows you to work. If you come from a poor country with no ties to Britain, and you have no skills that are seen as valuable to Britain, you dont have too much chance of getting a long-term visa.

If you dont get a visa, then the other option is to apply for asylum. That is only granted to people who are at "risk of persecution" in their homeland. It seems that different people have different interpretations of that.
Another issue is that asylum seekers have to apply for asylum in the first "safe" country they enter. Someone could be denied asylum because they enter Britain, via France. If France is the first country that they arrive in, then the law says that they must apply for asylum in France. Many asylum seekers attempt to choose what country they gain asylum in.


Basically, many illegal immigrants are people who enter the country on short-term visas, and dont leave when the visa expires. Some illegal immigrants are people who applied for asylum and were refused, and they have chosen not to move on, but just stay here illegally.


I've probably missed some stuff out, and some of it might not be fully accurate. It seems surprisingly hard to find out the exact rules.

[Adam]

The reason is that we don't just let anyone in.

So unless they're asylum seekers, that's often their only chance