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Author Topic: what are you opinions on panhandlening?  (Read 1071 times)

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Offline Jesse

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what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« on: July 26, 2013, 08:07:25 AM »
http://azdailysun.com/news/local/begging-in-flagstaff-headed-to-court/article_c70487ee-f1ce-11e2-908f-001a4bcf887a.html

and this article? I personally don't care if somebody asks me for money, I never have any so its not that hard to say no.
And sadly I think the business owners in this town are concerned about the same thing, these homeless people are

Money.  :laugh:

Its already Illegal here to "camp inside city limits" which means sleep outside. overall the police here are such assholes, to everyone.
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Offline Jack

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2013, 08:33:23 AM »
Post the article. Don't mind panhandlers from the safety of the car, and have given to passive panhandlers who were just sitting with a sign. Really don't like being approached on the street though.

Offline Parts

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2013, 08:35:14 AM »
I am generally uncomfortable with people approaching me when I am out and about and do my best to avoid it whether they are handing out flyers, selling something or asking for money.  I don't think there should be laws against it though. 
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

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Offline Jesse

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2013, 12:14:46 PM »
Post the article.
July 21, 2013 5:00 am  •  By CHRISTOPHER LEONE Sun Staff Reporter

A simple question like, “Can you spare a dollar, sir?” can land you in jail if spoken in a public area to one of Flagstaff’s plainclothes police officers. That is what happened to Marlene Baldwin, an elderly Hopi woman who asked an undercover officer for a dollar after first asking him for a hamburger.

Baldwin is now the lead plaintiff in a complaint filed by the American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona in U.S. District Court against the Flagstaff police, the city and the state of Arizona.

Since 2008, Flagstaff police have been arresting nonaggressive panhandlers like Baldwin in a stepped-up effort to reduce the number of petty crimes, like consuming alcohol in public, trespassing and littering, which the department believes can lead to more serious offenses if left unchecked, according to its 2012 annual report.

The police initiative, called Operation 40 after I-40 and the fortified 40-ounce beers popular among street alcoholics, has tried to appease the city’s business interests after complaints about transients escalated.

The initiative tries to catch alcoholic street transients committing petty offenses earlier in the day, before they get too drunk and make themselves prone to committing even more serious crimes, according to the report.

Police decline to comment for this story because of the ongoing lawsuit.

But the annual report goes on to say that OP-40 in partnership with several other city departments and efforts has helped account for a 6 percent reduction in overall crime during 2012.

FREE SPEECH OR MISDEMEANOR

Peaceful begging is not a crime, said Dan Pochoda, ACLU’s Arizona legal director. “It has long been held by many courts that the act of asking for money is ... protected by the First Amendment.”

the Flagstaff police are enforcing a state law, not a city ordinance. Arizona State Statute Title 13-2905 says that loitering to beg in a public place is a class 1 or class 3 misdemeanor, depending on whether the person is near a school or not.

The Flagstaff police have been enforcing this law since 2008 and with no small impact, said Pochoda.

“In an 11-month period that we got the statistics ... there were about 135 arrests,” Pochoda said.

The police department’s policy is widely known, and so the right of the city’s panhandlers to ask for money is chilled, Pochoda said, even if they were going hungry, because they’re afraid of getting arrested.

According to the statute, someone asking for money has committed a misdemeanor, while the same person in the same manner asking an officer to vote for a candidate has not.

“Words and expressions must be permitted ... particularly in pubic areas,” Pochoda said.

SIMILAR ORDINANCES STRUCK DOWN

In 2011, a Phoenix’s ordinance that was not as harsh as the state’s statute because it only prohibited begging after a certain time was struck down, Pochoda said.

Even in this case, the State of Arizona v. Boehler, the court found the Phoenix ordinance unconstitutional on its face because it limited the panhandler’s free speech rights, Pochoda added.

The other aspects of OP-40, like littering or drinking in public, are different, Pochoda said.

“Our attack is not on Operation 40,” Pochoda said. “If someone is busted for conduct, and not speech, conduct that is criminal  — that has nothing to do with the First Amendment.”

Pochoda said that he plans to ask for a preliminary injunction before Aug. 30 to stop the Flagstaff Police from arresting peaceful beggars.

“People are being harmed on a daily basis [and] courts have regularly stated that loss of First Amendment rights even for one day is an irreparable harm,” Pochoda said.
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Offline Jack

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2013, 02:07:00 PM »
Thanks, Richard. Would agree with parts; don't like it but it shouldn't be illegal.

Offline Bastet

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 03:27:29 PM »
Thanks, Richard. Would agree with parts; don't like it but it shouldn't be illegal.

If it is harassment it should. The laws should be more defined to make sure a guy who is stranded and and needs money for a payphone won't get arrested as opposed to a guy who makes a comfortable living panhandling as a "business". There are people who actually make a decent living panhandling. It is sick. Those people should be prosecuted, not people in need.
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Offline Parts

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 04:43:54 PM »
Thanks, Richard. Would agree with parts; don't like it but it shouldn't be illegal.

If it is harassment it should. The laws should be more defined to make sure a guy who is stranded and and needs money for a payphone won't get arrested as opposed to a guy who makes a comfortable living panhandling as a "business". There are people who actually make a decent living panhandling. It is sick. Those people should be prosecuted, not people in need.

I believe there are laws on the books about harassment already so if that is the case charge them with that.  I am tired of them passing all kinds of laws for things already covered by other laws to make it look like they are doing something.
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
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Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 08:39:00 PM »
It's doubtful very many panhandlers are scammers raking in loads of cash.
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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2013, 09:04:35 PM »
It's doubtful very many panhandlers are scammers raking in loads of cash.

There was a parolee who was such a person. He would jump in front of cars and wore shitty clothes to collect money.

http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/50-an-hour-professional-panhandler/
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Offline Jack

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2013, 09:35:15 PM »
Most of them are probably just poor.

Offline DirtDawg

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2013, 10:02:23 PM »

OT:


Anyone who can make enough "bread" to survive by just panhandling and selling what they can find that others throw away and remain "off the grid"  while enjoying their lives should absolutely be allowed to do so, unquestioned.

 :pirate:
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Offline DirtDawg

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2013, 10:04:19 PM »
I have often bumped a panhandler's kitty by a few bucks if they do not harass me, overly much.


I do not have to know why they are where they are.
 :'(
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

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Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2013, 11:57:58 AM »
It's doubtful very many panhandlers are scammers raking in loads of cash.

There was a parolee who was such a person. He would jump in front of cars and wore shitty clothes to collect money.

http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/50-an-hour-professional-panhandler/

He's not very many. I didn't say it never happens.
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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2013, 05:00:40 PM »
I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
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Re: what are you opinions on panhandlening?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2013, 08:54:40 PM »
I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.

If I saw you do something like that to someone in need, you would be on the ground struggling for breath with a ruptured larynx with my first blow and if you persisted, you would have a need to eat your final meals through a straw or an IV.

I hate people who disparage the weak or the ones who have hit on hard times.
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.