Author Topic: Agenda 21  (Read 13137 times)

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Offline Kapkao

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #390 on: August 01, 2013, 05:06:59 PM »
I went off the deep end thanks to this thread.   :zombiefuck:
:pwned:

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #391 on: August 01, 2013, 05:11:56 PM »
Don't you guys think this kind of stuff would be better dealt with AFTER knocking the elites off their high perch? I mean seriously, people...

I think one of the reasons that we like conspiracy theories is I think that we like to feel like there is a group of people who are so smart and powerful that they can pull the wool over an entire country or in fact even an entire world's eyes. That certainly makes us feel like somehow we're protected, even if it's not in our best interest.

-Jason Ritter

So who do you think is doing all the "tweaking" then? I mean really. Someone has to be benefitting from all this. The money has to be going somewhere, because we aren't running out of fucking paper. I just choose to call these people the "elite". They are obviously using our federal government for their gain, and have been for some time now.


Its just going to keep getting shittier and shittier unless we stand up and say NO. YOU'VE TAKEN ENOUGH.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline sg1008

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #392 on: August 01, 2013, 05:25:02 PM »

Even if their education previously was subpar, right?

The majority of American's attend public school before attending university, so not sure what that means. Subpar as everyone else, I guess.

Actually, I could draw you a pretty graph of the strong inverse relationship between percentage of students in poverty, and school performance (that is the grade that a state gives to a school, the number of graduates, etc). So yes, quality of education is not the same in every public school. Why do you think the state and gov't have been scrambling to correct our apparent education crisis?

Cause it sucks. And is far worse if you live in a poor neighborhood.
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline Beardy McFuckface

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #393 on: August 01, 2013, 05:31:50 PM »

Even if their education previously was subpar, right?

The majority of American's attend public school before attending university, so not sure what that means. Subpar as everyone else, I guess.

Not all schools are created equal.

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #394 on: August 01, 2013, 05:38:31 PM »
Sg is correct. The social status of minority groups would not be what it is today without affirmative action. Is it racially biased? Yes, it is. Big deal, considering the alternative. The purpose of affirmative action is to place intelligent hardworking minorities in their rightful place in society. Have once lived in an area with a poor, mostly non-English speaking, hispanic minority who were suddenly drawn in by booming business. Now live in an area where Hispanics have been around for a long time. They not only represent low wage workers, but the middle and upperclass, business people, and leaders. Racism still exists, but it's a completely different world. Really like it.

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #395 on: August 01, 2013, 05:43:06 PM »

Even if their education previously was subpar, right?

The majority of American's attend public school before attending university, so not sure what that means. Subpar as everyone else, I guess.

Not all schools are created equal.

Of course not; there's a ranking list by state out there somewhere. Sill, unless someone has money for college, is a genius or sports star in highschool for fat scholarships, it's a situation of the same kids from the same area applying for the same local colleges and tech schools. Everyone has a fair shot. Poverty among minorities is probably a bigger issue, as far as kids dropping out or things like that.

Offline Adam

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #396 on: August 01, 2013, 05:53:04 PM »
one of the problems with affirmative action is that it can ultimately work AGAINST the people it' trying to help. If [everyone else] sees it as [minority] are getting "special treatment" and being given jobs just becuase they're X, Y or Z, then that can create - in face, does create - resentment and will actually worsen race relations etc

Good intentions, well meaning, maybe. But it's flawed

Offline Adam

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #397 on: August 01, 2013, 05:55:42 PM »
btw, when you guys say "qualified", I've been assuming you meant actual qualifications - diplomas, degrees, grades etc. Or do you mean "more qualified" in my general terms? ie better suited to the job, when everything is taken into account, including past experience etc

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #398 on: August 01, 2013, 06:18:05 PM »
one of the problems with affirmative action is that it can ultimately work AGAINST the people it' trying to help. If [everyone else] sees it as [minority] are getting "special treatment" and being given jobs just becuase they're X, Y or Z, then that can create - in face, does create - resentment and will actually worsen race relations etc

Good intentions, well meaning, maybe. But it's flawed

OMFG EXACTLY
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #399 on: August 01, 2013, 06:37:20 PM »
one of the problems with affirmative action is that it can ultimately work AGAINST the people it' trying to help. If [everyone else] sees it as [minority] are getting "special treatment" and being given jobs just becuase they're X, Y or Z, then that can create - in face, does create - resentment and will actually worsen race relations etc

Good intentions, well meaning, maybe. But it's flawed

Not everyone else thinks that. There will always be some; what's that word? Work in a sizable office building where there are more white people than black people, more white people than Hispanic people, more white people than Asian people. There might even be slightly more white people than other races combined, but it's a pretty fair mix. Can't remember ever thinking about anyone like that...they have their job because they're getting special treatment. Don't think about it at all. Hopefully most of the other people at work really don't think about it at all either. They don't act like they do. It's a pitty there must be rules for that.

Offline Bastet

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #400 on: August 01, 2013, 07:37:25 PM »

Even if their education previously was subpar, right?

The majority of American's attend public school before attending university, so not sure what that means. Subpar as everyone else, I guess.

Not all schools are created equally.

Apparently not. :D
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It is far better for people to hate you for doing the right thing than for people to love you for doing the wrong thing. Never ever forget that.

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #401 on: August 01, 2013, 07:45:28 PM »
btw, when you guys say "qualified", I've been assuming you meant actual qualifications - diplomas, degrees, grades etc. Or do you mean "more qualified" in my general terms? ie better suited to the job, when everything is taken into account, including past experience etc

It's my understanding, qualified as in, an employer has two resumes in front of them worth perusing a personal interview. On paper they're equally good.

Offline sg1008

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #402 on: August 01, 2013, 08:06:01 PM »
If there are people who resent minorities for being disadvantaged, then they are idiots, plain and simple.

Affirmative action doesn't create resentment, that resentment was already there in the first place...decent people don't resent. And they don't "miss" opportunities. Minorities are not unfairly being given jobs, they actually work hard and qualify for them. In the small amount of cases where they are chosen as tokens, it is for numbers purposes and they are sacked soon after. For instance, in one public school in my city, they admit insanely high numbers of kids in 7th and 8th grades, admit a ton of minority students, give them poor quality teachers, because they don't expect those kids to last. They then kick out poorer performing students so that by 9th grade they have the class they want. The minority kids in the 7th and 8th grades are used for numbers...

Anyways, affirmative action isn't removing opportunities from majorities...if they feel resentment, they are probably uneducated.

I know no minority who would say affirmative action works against them.
Look at the numbers, there are clearly still gaps...

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=72

http://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/2012/09/04/race-and-gender-in-higher-education/

Now, there is not an equal shot for poor kids trying to go to college vs non poor.

I'm sorry, but quality of public schools depends on the wealth of the neighborhood and the students attending. It just does. Go to the poorest performing school, you will find it is poorly equipped, large classrooms, overwhelmed teachers, and kids who are living in poverty. Are they prepped for college? Do they graduate? IF they graduate, do they do so with a quality education in their pockets, or were they passed along and taught the 'tests' only?

There is plenty of literature demonstrating the gap. Not only that, there is also literature on implicit racism taught by teachers. For instance, black females are encouraged more in school, and black males tend to be assessed more harshly in terms of behaviour.

Also a lot of kids who have issues such as ADHD/ADD, in minorities are not diagnosed because bad behaviour is simply 'expected', because....well, racist stereotyping.

Things are not equal.

And btw, I strongly point out that there is a big difference between being "poor" and being impoverished. Being poor simply means you have simple means, or no means...just a lack of money. Being impoverished is a whole nother shit pool of having little or no money, but also living in a broken community plagued with violence, crime, and nothing to do...growing up the subject of other peoples distrust, with no purpose, and very few people to care for you. Kids who tend to under perform are the ones who are not only poor, but also impoverished...and that kind of poverty, where a whole entire community and environment is in shambles, doesn't happen overnight...and it doesn't happen on accident. And stick a school in the middle of that and see how many good teachers apply to work there, and see who donates to fund the school, and see who cares about the kids at all.

Corruption in jails, in law enforcement, lack of opportunities, and the historical migration of poor people to inner cities and their treatment there all plays into such a situation. It isn't isolated...

So if it were just poor people, then simply poor people would probably have a good chance...they might no have the best equipt schools, but the environment would be conducive to learning. But these aren't poor people, they are impoverished.

going off on a tangent...

Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline Adam

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #403 on: August 01, 2013, 08:17:22 PM »
one of the problems with affirmative action is that it can ultimately work AGAINST the people it' trying to help. If [everyone else] sees it as [minority] are getting "special treatment" and being given jobs just becuase they're X, Y or Z, then that can create - in face, does create - resentment and will actually worsen race relations etc

Good intentions, well meaning, maybe. But it's flawed

Not everyone else thinks that. There will always be some; what's that word? Work in a sizable office building where there are more white people than black people, more white people than Hispanic people, more white people than Asian people. There might even be slightly more white people than other races combined, but it's a pretty fair mix. Can't remember ever thinking about anyone like that...they have their job because they're getting special treatment. Don't think about it at all. Hopefully most of the other people at work really don't think about it at all either. They don't act like they do. It's a pitty there must be rules for that.

Of course not everyone thinks like that

And I didnt mean their other colleagues. I meant society in general. It will increase resentment towards them from other people.

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #404 on: August 01, 2013, 08:23:53 PM »

I'm sorry, but quality of public schools depends on the wealth of the neighborhood and the students attending.
The quality of public schools depends on the state. Until two or three years ago, my state's public schools ranked one of the lowest in the nation. Not a poor state. A tourist state. A state with a lottery. When the people of the state elected to have a lottery, it was with the understanding half the money would go to public school. Where the crap is all that money going? My a community is not a poor one, despite it's embarrassing school system. A lot of changes have been made. Things are considerably better because the state is spending the money to make it so.