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Author Topic: Agenda 21  (Read 13029 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #405 on: August 01, 2013, 08:24:15 PM »
If there are people who resent minorities for being disadvantaged, then they are idiots, plain and simple.
Agreed. So? Whether they are idiots or not is besides the point - of course they're idiots. The problem is still there tho.


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Affirmative action doesn't create resentment, that resentment was already there in the first place...decent people don't resent.
It doesn't create it out of nowhere,no. But it increases it. Yes, they're clearly already at least slightly racist/homophobic/whatever to begin with, but if people start to think black people are getting jobs just becuase they're black, obviously that's just stirring it up even more.


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And they don't "miss" opportunities. Minorities are not unfairly being given jobs,
No, but the PERCEPTION that they are is there

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Anyways, affirmative action isn't removing opportunities from majorities...if they feel resentment, they are probably uneducated.
Again, besides the point.

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I know no minority who would say affirmative action works against them.
Of course it doesnt work against individual people belonging to some minority. I said it can make the racism/homophpbia etc worse itself. In general. It clearly helps the individual people, but if it stirs up resentment from others, it's obviously not helping stamp out bigotry itself.

Offline Adam

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #406 on: August 01, 2013, 08:26:09 PM »

I'm sorry, but quality of public schools depends on the wealth of the neighborhood and the students attending.
The quality of public schools depends on the state.

A state is much bigger than a neighbourhood. And the relative wealth of different neighbourhoods is gonna vary a lot within each state

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #407 on: August 01, 2013, 08:31:22 PM »

I'm sorry, but quality of public schools depends on the wealth of the neighborhood and the students attending.
The quality of public schools depends on the state.

A state is much bigger than a neighbourhood. And the relative wealth of different neighbourhoods is gonna vary a lot within each state

The federal government and state governments fund public schools. Schools are funded per head.  My state had a D ranking for state funding. Now it has a B.

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #408 on: August 01, 2013, 08:33:24 PM »
How that effects student performance ratings is still to be seen.

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #409 on: August 01, 2013, 09:20:09 PM »
Something like affirmative action, yes I find that racist since I find it patronising they can't hire ie. a black person for their skill and only doing so for the colour of his skin.

Wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was tweaked to declare that the person with higher qualification gets highest priority. So in a situation of a black having greater qualification than a white candidate, they are guaranteed the job strictly for the merit of his/her skill, rather than discarded because of their race. Ironically, isn't that what affirmative action should really be doing? Ensuring education is rewarded and equal opportunities are granted?

The purpose of affirmative action is to try and make up for the institutionalized racism that is the reason behind why minorities are lesser educated and therefore lesser qualified for the positions.  To state that everything should be equal on merit is to do more than "tweak", it rejects the fundamental purpose of affirmative action.

Which is a flawed purpose to begin with. The only aspect I'd support is if a minority is equally or better suited for something, race should be completely irrelevant to the reason why they're hired. But I hate the "filling the quota" mentality affirmative action generates, and as a result fails to actually tackle the deeper underlying issues of racism. To even acknowledge race as a factor for anything, positive or negative is still discriminatory no matter what the justification is for it.

If you want to fight the underlying problem you need to abolish the notion that race is relevant to anything and grant everyone the same opportunities in life.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 09:22:09 PM by ProfessorFarnsworth »
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #410 on: August 01, 2013, 09:28:31 PM »
It's funny, because I think we're on the same page here.
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #411 on: August 01, 2013, 09:32:39 PM »
Canadians call it "Employment Equity". Smart bastards, those Canadians.
:gopher:

Offline sg1008

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #412 on: August 01, 2013, 09:55:48 PM »
If there are people who resent minorities for being disadvantaged, then they are idiots, plain and simple.
Agreed. So? Whether they are idiots or not is besides the point - of course they're idiots. The problem is still there tho.


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Affirmative action doesn't create resentment, that resentment was already there in the first place...decent people don't resent.
It doesn't create it out of nowhere,no. But it increases it. Yes, they're clearly already at least slightly racist/homophobic/whatever to begin with, but if people start to think black people are getting jobs just becuase they're black, obviously that's just stirring it up even more.


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And they don't "miss" opportunities. Minorities are not unfairly being given jobs,
No, but the PERCEPTION that they are is there

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Anyways, affirmative action isn't removing opportunities from majorities...if they feel resentment, they are probably uneducated.
Again, besides the point.

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I know no minority who would say affirmative action works against them.
Of course it doesnt work against individual people belonging to some minority. I said it can make the racism/homophpbia etc worse itself. In general. It clearly helps the individual people, but if it stirs up resentment from others, it's obviously not helping stamp out bigotry itself.

Ah, yes I can agree with that. My personal opinion: I'd rather bigotry be blatant and obvious, and not bandaged, or smoothed over. For the same reason you stated, smoothing it over doesn't get rid of it.

The general philosophy behind success of quick fixes, such as laws and incentives, is that once people of certain groups are allowed to succeed in certain roles, the public opinion of them and their capabilities will change. It is like changing segregation laws to allow people to mingle, to get to know one another, to build trust, and to breakdown barriers...

[WARNING: I seriously digress below....culture is one of my favourite topics...I like to squeeze a lot in...sorry...just a lot of rambling below]

But as we know, even desegregation has backfired in a nasty way (due to the problem being bandaged, not fixed). For instance, if there are 5 black people in a giant group of 30 people, and those people are being split into groups to participate in some workshop, a few of those black ppl will probably (due to commonalities in culture) sit together and get along, sharing the same jokes, etc... Well, due to the desegregation attitude, ppl expect that the minorities don't mingle with each other, but require them to separate and have one in each group of white people.

For some reason it's too intimidating for a non-black person to sit with the few black people and mingle, instead the black people are expected to separate and mingle with others. This is one instance in which the minority is used as a token.

It doesn't harbour any kind of cultural exchange, because the communities don't mingle, and don't breakdown barriers. They assume sticking a minority in a group of majority will breakdown barriers, but all it does is create an environment where the minority is pressured to conform and relate culturally with the larger group...never being able to fully share their own cultural background, unless they host some kind of cultural event...

So if a minority person acts upper class/white/straight/gender stereotyped enough, they will be readily accepted. No cultural exchange. Just assimilation.

Also...it depends on the minority with how well they will assimilate. For instance refugees who come here tend to not do so well, mostly because they don't come with the aim of the "american dream", they come to escape something, perhaps unwillingly, and with different sort of hopes. Perhaps they perform well with the aim of improving their homeland...or perhaps they remain in survival mode even when they live here for awhile.

Then there are groups of people to immigrate specifically for the american dream- they come with a goal, and those who trickle in from their origin community tend to be motivated, upper class in their own culture, and tend to help each other with certain job and opportunities, and may assimilate easier. For instance, in the US, a lot of people from India who come here for higher education or professional jobs, tend not to be from the lower castes, and tend to assimilate very well with upper class in America.

Also if they come specifically for education and a profession, or for work with the intention of keeping ties with home, than when they have kids, they will likely raise them with a similar expectation of achievement. So the cultural exchange we share on those levels tend to be a very narrow one. We don't hear much from lower Indian castes for instance. Or from upper class professional latinos...for instance, many white collar professionals, due to language barrier, take blue collar jobs.

Then there are minorities who grow up here, and their experience and life circumstance are very very different.

Because of differences in assimilation, opportunity, culture of origin, and stereotypes, then there are differences in the way minorities will benefit from such laws and bandages put into place. And there are differences in the ways they will "backfire".

Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline sg1008

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #413 on: August 01, 2013, 10:03:39 PM »

I'm sorry, but quality of public schools depends on the wealth of the neighborhood and the students attending.
The quality of public schools depends on the state.

A state is much bigger than a neighbourhood. And the relative wealth of different neighbourhoods is gonna vary a lot within each state

The federal government and state governments fund public schools. Schools are funded per head.  My state had a D ranking for state funding. Now it has a B.

What state are you from?

A public school in the suburbs is like...a friggin college campus, carpeting on the floors... In the ghetto, it doesn't have computers, barely a playground, and no art or music classes.

First of all, its not SOLELY by state...it is state, then it's by county, and then it's by district, and a lot hangs on the nieghborhood. A rich neighborhood, they pay more taxes, the alumni make more donations, more money goes to the schools. In a poor neighborhood, less taxes, barely any alumni, and less money to schools. Simple math.

THERE YA GO: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/education/us-education-department-finds-salary-gap-in-poor-schools.html?_r=0
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 10:06:26 PM by sg1008 »
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline Parts

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #414 on: August 01, 2013, 10:46:28 PM »
I worked with a lot of refugees in the past and for the most part they did better than the idiots we hired who were born here.  Most used the job as a jumping point to a better one after getting used to the US.  One family I knew even went on to start their own businesses and buy houses within three years of getting here.  I worked mostly with people from the Balkans and the Congo, the only ones that didn't work out at all were from Somalia they were a nightmare. 
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
George Bernard Shaw

Offline odeon

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #415 on: August 01, 2013, 10:47:05 PM »
Don't try, babelet. They're just faggots and they'll never be as mature or understanding as you. I talk a little rough, so i'm the devil to them. Let it be.


This is sig material.

I like how you try to discount what I say by applying your emotions to it.

It was better to write the above instead of "don't flatter yourself". I've tried reasoning with you and it didn't work. I've tried pointing out that if you want an actual discussion, you might start by skipping the name-calling, and it didn't work. I've tried to ask you to back up at least some of your shit instead of the strawman. Didn't work either.

The vast majority of your opinions are now little more than background noise and as such not worth discussing. I like how you are bothered by the few responses you get, though.

And I've tried to explain that calling things you don't like to think about "strawmen" is a bit silly.

Have you even read the definition? I did provide a link, I think.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #416 on: August 01, 2013, 10:48:49 PM »
There is no contest. this isn't a pissing match, rage. But of course if someone says something to me I'm going to respond.
boy I feel like I'm on the school playground.  :yawn:

Its always the fucking school playground when you're involved, you little punk. I'm asking you to back up your shit. You think you can mess around with someone's personal information? Try it with me, tough guy. I could expose your entire life.

The irony.

I've literally provided stacks of documents to support my argument. You? You've provided one liners and cocky jabs.

The irony x2

You probably should go back and reread the thread. Still waiting for you to disprove that you aren't a space alien.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #417 on: August 01, 2013, 10:53:17 PM »
Something like affirmative action, yes I find that racist since I find it patronising they can't hire ie. a black person for their skill and only doing so for the colour of his skin.

Wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was tweaked to declare that the person with higher qualification gets highest priority. So in a situation of a black having greater qualification than a white candidate, they are guaranteed the job strictly for the merit of his/her skill, rather than discarded because of their race. Ironically, isn't that what affirmative action should really be doing? Ensuring education is rewarded and equal opportunities are granted?

I thought that's usually how it's supposed to be in the workplace. Wouldn't call that affirmative action, just common sense.

Depends on what you choose to include in the qualifications. In other words, what the job requires. Education is not everything and I have seen several cases where a person with a better education was less suitable for the job than his competitors for the position.

Not trying to be contrary, btw, just thinking of a few cases when my employer should have chosen differently.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #418 on: August 01, 2013, 10:54:23 PM »
I hate it when people assume that employers hire strictly based on qualification. That's a goddamn lie. It ain't unnatural to want to hire people who you feel comfortable with (or who your team will feel comfortable with), in fact that is good hiring practice.

QFT
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #419 on: August 01, 2013, 10:55:41 PM »
Don't you guys think this kind of stuff would be better dealt with AFTER knocking the elites off their high perch? I mean seriously, people...

No, because if you can't change your own situation, you sure as hell can't change anyone else's.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein