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Author Topic: Agenda 21  (Read 13614 times)

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Offline Jesse

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #375 on: August 01, 2013, 12:17:54 PM »
I agree with SG800. most employers higher on looks alone, qualifications have nothing to do with it.
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Offline MLA

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #376 on: August 01, 2013, 01:28:47 PM »
Something like affirmative action, yes I find that racist since I find it patronising they can't hire ie. a black person for their skill and only doing so for the colour of his skin.

Wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was tweaked to declare that the person with higher qualification gets highest priority. So in a situation of a black having greater qualification than a white candidate, they are guaranteed the job strictly for the merit of his/her skill, rather than discarded because of their race. Ironically, isn't that what affirmative action should really be doing? Ensuring education is rewarded and equal opportunities are granted?

The purpose of affirmative action is to try and make up for the institutionalized racism that is the reason behind why minorities are lesser educated and therefore lesser qualified for the positions.  To state that everything should be equal on merit is to do more than "tweak", it rejects the fundamental purpose of affirmative action.

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #377 on: August 01, 2013, 01:32:57 PM »
Don't you guys think this kind of stuff would be better dealt with AFTER knocking the elites off their high perch? I mean seriously, people...
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline sg1008

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #378 on: August 01, 2013, 01:33:24 PM »
Something like affirmative action, yes I find that racist since I find it patronising they can't hire ie. a black person for their skill and only doing so for the colour of his skin.

Wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was tweaked to declare that the person with higher qualification gets highest priority. So in a situation of a black having greater qualification than a white candidate, they are guaranteed the job strictly for the merit of his/her skill, rather than discarded because of their race. Ironically, isn't that what affirmative action should really be doing? Ensuring education is rewarded and equal opportunities are granted?

The purpose of affirmative action is to try and make up for the institutionalized racism that is the reason behind why minorities are lesser educated and therefore lesser qualified for the positions.  To state that everything should be equal on merit is to do more than "tweak", it rejects the fundamental purpose of affirmative action.

 :pwned:
 :agreed:
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline MLA

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #379 on: August 01, 2013, 01:36:46 PM »
Don't you guys think this kind of stuff would be better dealt with AFTER knocking the elites off their high perch? I mean seriously, people...

I think one of the reasons that we like conspiracy theories is I think that we like to feel like there is a group of people who are so smart and powerful that they can pull the wool over an entire country or in fact even an entire world's eyes. That certainly makes us feel like somehow we're protected, even if it's not in our best interest.

-Jason Ritter

Offline sg1008

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #380 on: August 01, 2013, 01:39:12 PM »
Don't you guys think this kind of stuff would be better dealt with AFTER knocking the elites off their high perch? I mean seriously, people...

I think one of the reasons that we like conspiracy theories is I think that we like to feel like there is a group of people who are so smart and powerful that they can pull the wool over an entire country or in fact even an entire world's eyes. That certainly makes us feel like somehow we're protected, even if it's not in our best interest.

-Jason Ritter

Interesting notion...  :apondering:
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline Beardy McFuckface

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #381 on: August 01, 2013, 03:10:05 PM »
The purpose of affirmative action is to try and make up for the institutionalized racism that is the reason behind why minorities are lesser educated and therefore lesser qualified for the positions.  To state that everything should be equal on merit is to do more than "tweak", it rejects the fundamental purpose of affirmative action.

Institutionalised racism is a problem indeed.

However, basing employment on how someone looks or talks is one thing, but picking someone purely for their race for me isn't the right way of doing it. I believe companies should really focus on the abilities of their potential employees more than anything else. After all, wouldn't it be pretty much useless and disheartening to go to college to get degree, only to be picked because they want to fill their race quota, but not for your talents?

Getting rid of institutionalised racism and making measures to help minorities get better education would work better, IMO. Affirmative action just reinforces it with positive racism, which is still racism.

If we want to live in an equal society, then true equality needs to be achieved by fixing those inequalities rather than half-arsed attempts such as this.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 03:11:36 PM by schleed »

Offline Beardy McFuckface

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #382 on: August 01, 2013, 03:17:35 PM »
Quote
In Sweden, the Supreme Court has ruled that "affirmative action" ethnic quotas in universities are discrimination and hence unlawful. It said that the requirements for the intake should be the same for all. The Justice Chancellor said that the decision left no room for uncertainty.

Huh, seems quotas are being challenged.

I think the original meaning for affirmative action, "to hire without regard to race, religion and national origin" makes a lot more sense than it's current implementation.

Offline sg1008

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #383 on: August 01, 2013, 04:08:14 PM »
There is a such thing as being the "token" minority. It's racism all the same...and it's not a brand new version of it, people of minorities have been used as tokens in a lot of things for hundreds of years, just as they have been discriminated against. Both are aspects of racism, neither are exclusive of each other. Both reinforce stereotypes...etc.

Affirmative action offers incentives for employers who, when deciding between two qualified professionals, they won't always give the upper hand to the familiar and comfortable face, and will give a second look at someone unfamiliar- such as a woman, or someone with a disability, or someone of a disadvantaged race. It's silly to think that if you are a white neurotypical decent looking male that you are judged on merit alone. Quite the opposite! You already have an upper hand...even if born poor, once you're in the interview room, wearing a suit, the employer will base their first impression on your looks. Then your mannerisms. And then finally your merit. They see a black man wearing a suit and c'mon, black men don't make good first impressions unless your trying to intimidate someone. Also, the chances a black man even makes it to the interview room are slim, given unequal access to education and networking in the first place...

If the playing field wasn't leveled a bit, and this is the nasty truth, thousands of minority professionals would not exist. Thousands more wouldn't even try. And it is likely the civil rights movement would have more fire still, which in my opinion, would be a good thing. I would rather people see society for what it is than imagine that because they hired a black person, all is well.

All is not well.

All is horribly, wretchedly, fucked.

It doesn't bother me that things are fucked....make do with what we got eh? What bothers me is the culture of sheer delusion and selfishness which we live in. No thanks to the fucking catholic church! AHHHHHHHHHH!>>N<D>JKBFJKBKH>S?TB:ABCLAHVcf l


I

am

so

angryyyyyyyyyyY!!!!

Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #384 on: August 01, 2013, 04:09:23 PM »
I believe companies should really focus on the abilities of their potential employees more than anything else.

Thinking they do. My understanding of affirmative action is, an employer has one position with two equally qualified applicants. If one of those applicants is a minority then they get the job. Of course it's not that clear cut; thinking there's maybe percentage guidelines. Not really sure. Can remember in my last position, HR commenting they were catching grief for not having enough white people in hire. Go figure. :laugh:

Offline Beardy McFuckface

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #385 on: August 01, 2013, 04:46:41 PM »
There is a such thing as being the "token" minority. It's racism all the same...and it's not a brand new version of it, people of minorities have been used as tokens in a lot of things for hundreds of years, just as they have been discriminated against. Both are aspects of racism, neither are exclusive of each other. Both reinforce stereotypes...etc.

Affirmative action offers incentives for employers who, when deciding between two qualified professionals, they won't always give the upper hand to the familiar and comfortable face, and will give a second look at someone unfamiliar- such as a woman, or someone with a disability, or someone of a disadvantaged race. It's silly to think that if you are a white neurotypical decent looking male that you are judged on merit alone. Quite the opposite! You already have an upper hand...even if born poor, once you're in the interview room, wearing a suit, the employer will base their first impression on your looks. Then your mannerisms. And then finally your merit. They see a black man wearing a suit and c'mon, black men don't make good first impressions unless your trying to intimidate someone. Also, the chances a black man even makes it to the interview room are slim, given unequal access to education and networking in the first place...

If the playing field wasn't leveled a bit, and this is the nasty truth, thousands of minority professionals would not exist. Thousands more wouldn't even try. And it is likely the civil rights movement would have more fire still, which in my opinion, would be a good thing. I would rather people see society for what it is than imagine that because they hired a black person, all is well.

All is not well.

All is horribly, wretchedly, fucked.

It doesn't bother me that things are fucked....make do with what we got eh? What bothers me is the culture of sheer delusion and selfishness which we live in. No thanks to the fucking catholic church! AHHHHHHHHHH!>>N<D>JKBFJKBKH>S?TB:ABCLAHVcf l


I

am

so

angryyyyyyyyyyY!!!!

Which is why I find it better to fix the underlying problems rather than masking it. Companies should base their decisions on ability, not race, gender etc. Minorities should get proper education to help them succeed and so on. I believe this is possible since I see no reason why an Africian or whatever person cannot be just as qualified as everyone else, since there's no cognitive differences between races. The reason why they're not as educated etc. is societal, which is wrong.

I would agree however with disabled people, who definitely need help. I don't see this as giving them privelidges since they cannot function the same way as an abled person. The help will show their potential as talented employees.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 04:50:10 PM by schleed »

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #386 on: August 01, 2013, 04:53:07 PM »
Minorities should get proper education to help them succeed and so on.

Affirmative action also applies to higher education, people seeking educational grants and scholarships.

Offline sg1008

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #387 on: August 01, 2013, 04:53:42 PM »
I went off the deep end thanks to this thread.   :zombiefuck:
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline Beardy McFuckface

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #388 on: August 01, 2013, 05:00:34 PM »
Minorities should get proper education to help them succeed and so on.

Affirmative action also applies to higher education, people seeking educational grants and scholarships.

Even if their education previously was subpar, right? This is the problem. An underqualified minority will find it harder and more likely drop out.

We shouldn't have to have quotas and making it easier for minorities to get into college, work etc. They should be able to go into them the same way as everyone else, because they have the same capabilities as everyone else. The problem is that society impedes them, meaning they're stuck in a rut. It's better to fix society rather than to apply positive racism, which can do more harm than good.

Offline Jack

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Re: Agenda 21
« Reply #389 on: August 01, 2013, 05:05:26 PM »

Even if their education previously was subpar, right?

The majority of American's attend public school before attending university, so not sure what that means. Subpar as everyone else, I guess.