I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.

['andersom']

April 9th marked the 59th anniversary of the equal pay act. Still women earn .77 to every mans $1.00

There is still ongoing debate on whether or not this difference is mainly due to gender discrimination. There are so many factors at play here that could contribute to the difference it's hard to pinpoint what exactly. Politicians don't make it easier when they insist they understand statistics perfectly well.

As for what used to go on in history, that's history past and irrelevant now (except for memorial purposes and such). It's like black people still fighting for the abolishing of slavery in the US when it has already long gone.

All kinds of factors are at play indeed. History related factors too. A female friend of mine earned way less than the husband of another friend at the same firm. He had more holidays too. She was working for more years there. And, she was his superior.
She changed to a better job, and a better job culture.

['andersom']

Men are raped as well, but even so, rape has nothing to do with whether women of today have rights or not that men have.

Have you been following what is going on in India? Rape has everything to do with the rights women have. Or do not have, in this case. In India, it is still possible to get away with rape because society will blame you if you are a victim, the police will actively suggest you to not report the crime, and the judges will be biased if it does go to court.

There may be laws in place for perceived, skin-deep equality but you will be put in your place if you actually seek it.

You can tell that to the feminists in the more civilized nations (like USA) who are too busy attacking an imaginary entity and trying to put men, in general, in a negative light (unless they suck up to them and agree with everything they say) and don't have time to be concerned about the more serious issues going on in other countries like the one you stated.

Also, even if laws were put to protect women from being raped, this wouldn't stop rape from happening. So this shows that having rights is one thing and the probability of getting raped is another thing. There may be a link, but a man or a woman may still get raped within a society that has laws to punish rape.

That it can be punished is a good thing though.

Rape was about damaging goods once, bringing shame to the family and such. In some countries it is.
In western countries the experience of the raped woman became important. What happened to the rape victim became important. Slowly that took away a bit of the shame brought unto others because of being raped. Slowly men dared to tell they got raped too. This was partly possible, i.m.o. because the experience of the rape victim, and the damage and injustice done to the victim was being taken serious, and not just the damage and shame done to the family.

Incest started with thinking about male perpetrators only. Not anymore. There may be less women in peado- and incest crimes, but they are there, and they are just as power-abusing as male perpetrators.

['andersom']

Yet women ( on average), in the same job with the same education do not make the same as men.

Any evidence?

impatient and dense.
 I already provided a link.  You can do your own research.

I have to go to work.  See, instead of crying that life isn't fair, that the women's rights coalition is beating us poor men down, I choose to do something for myself.  Right now I'm going to earn a living.
Also, instead of living in fear that everybody is against the straight white male I embrace others plight for equity. I choose to not live in fear.
It is quite freeing, others should try it.

In the meantime, I am happy to see women earn at the same rate as men.  Have health protections such as abortion rights. Happy to see them free from being the property of men.  These are good things.  I wish them more of it.

I owe you a  for that one. Not wanting to live in fear is 

['andersom']

Women are not as weak as you make them out to be. And they are not any more victims of cultural disadvantages than men are.

Care to back this up? Humanity has literally thousands of years to make up for when it comes to women being the victims of "cultural disadvantages", from the right to vote to equal pay to - yes - protection from rape. The list goes on.

History past. Black people are no longer slaves in the USA. So it wouldn't make sense to argue that black people are being deprived of rights now because they used to be slaves in the past.

As for protection of rape, I already made my point clear. It has nothing to do with rights. Rape will continue to be committed regardless of rights.

So, no slavery because of colour of skin anymore. But, how are the chances for a job, for a good education? Not seen for a individual, but seen in a bigger perspective. POV can help pinpoint where inequality and injustice is happening.

As for rape, it is good that it can be punished. Without that, there would be a lot more rape, because it simply would not exist as a crime, and you could not be a victim, if it was not a crime.

[Dexter Morgan]

Equality is a load of shit. In order for it to happen, gender roles have to become completely abolished, something neither gender wants.

[RageBeoulve]

Equality is a load of shit. In order for it to happen, gender roles have to become completely abolished, something neither gender wants.

*mouth curls into a grin, and keeps curling in spirals*

YES. This is all the product of a bunch of lazy fucks, who became bored because they are lazy and decided annoying the piss out of everyone was the best outlet. Since we're passing so many fucked up laws nowadays, how about making it a LAW to punch someone in the face for trying to start gender equality movements. Since i'm all for gender equality, how about making it cool to punch a girl's lights out too?

[odeon]

I define rights as privileges granted by the state. Now if we're in a country where women are already granted the same rights as men in many aspects (including when it comes to protection from rape), and yet rape continues to happen, what point is it then to argue that women are continually being raped when attempting to show why women still don't have the rights that men have?

How many rapes do you think your country would have yearly if the laws you have in place were actively being ignored? That it continues to happen shows that we still have a long way to go. Or do you think that you don't need to consider that mindset I mentioned?

I happen to think we *must* consider it unless we mean to look the other way unless it's our loved ones.

Just because one has rights doesn't mean people will respect his/her rights.

No, but if the laws that are in place to protect those rights are ignored by the ones who should do the protecting, the situation is likely to be worse, don't you think?

Not every country is as extreme as India in this respect (come to think of it, some are even more extreme) but that little thing I call the mindset might cause rape to be regarded as less serious than it should be. It is happening in my country.

Now you mentioned India for some reason when really the original argument between me and McJagger was focused on the women who live in much more fortunate conditions who yell about injustice here and there and shift the blame on every other entity out there instead of owning whatever perceived inequality they may be suffering and doing something about it without implicitly or explicitly putting down the opposite gender for everything that women have gone through.

Are you saying that there's nothing to discuss and they should be thankful for their lot? Those numbers in that Wikipedia article I quoted, are they all wrong? Don't you think at least a few of the numbers in the western world would indicate something else than the frequently outright discrimination that is still in place?

Oh, and I mentioned India because you said this:

Men are raped as well, but even so, rape has nothing to do with whether women of today have rights or not that men have.

Rape has *everything* to do with rights and India makes a good case in point.

And as for men in India, they may have privileges and honors that women lack there, but in Australia and USA and the likes, a lot of the time, if a man says he was raped, people tend to not take it as seriously as when women report being raped. Is this not one injustice that men themselves have to face? And yet it is just one of many. People of all sorts face injustice, whether based on gender, race, lack of religion, etc. It's not just women who suffer.

No one should be raped, ever. But let's compare the situation in Australia:



The article is here and focusses on childhood sexual abuse and sexual assault of males.

I think it's safe to say that women are at far greater risk. Would you agree? But more importantly, how would you you explain it?

Also, I said that slavery stopped a while ago, but I didn't say that racism itself stopped with slavery. Even today, I notice several racist people against the black. But the point is you would be hard pressed to see a black person being treated as a slave in America.

How about other colours?

http://www.wgbhnews.org/post/human-trafficking-modern-day-slavery-america

And yes, black, too:

http://www.theroot.com/views/black-girls-are-still-enslaved

Not very subtle, I'm afraid, but very real.

Gender pay difference leaning in favor of men is understandable if you look at all the factors behind why men altogether have higher pay. In many nations, men have had higher positions, higher privileges, and more reasons to work in high positions than women. Not necessarily due to gender discrimination but due to various social, cultural and even biopsychological differences between both genders.

And yet, it's not always the case that men get higher pay than women.

Consider men and women within the age range of 20-29. Guess which gender is getting higher pay?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/27/young-women-earning-more-men

I don't think this is due to companies only now ceasing to discriminate against working women based on gender, but simply because more and more women are becoming daring and ambitious when it comes to work within the current zeitgeist and, in addition, to organizations and other groups going out of their way to offer jobs and careers for women only (the university I go to being just one example), it is easy to see why.

The article starts with a rather more sombre "Yes, there is greater equity between the sexes, but overall, the pay gap continues to favour men" and then concludes with "After all, men's earnings start to outstrip women's from the age of 29 – precisely when Mrs Average now has her first child."

But here's the thing: this is an exception to the rule. If there was no gender gap, the statistics would probably fluctuate. But they don't really.

I do think there's a lot to work on yet.

[odeon]

Equality is a load of shit. In order for it to happen, gender roles have to become completely abolished, something neither gender wants.

You are confusing equality and equal rights.

[Calavera]

How many rapes do you think your country would have yearly if the laws you have in place were actively being ignored?

The graph you just posted says it all. Laws are still being actively ignored by many with certain sexual addictions and psychological issues.

The solution is not in the laws and by granting women rights because women in Australia already have these rights. The state can do nothing more in terms of legal power to reduce rape.

That it continues to happen shows that we still have a long way to go. Or do you think that you don't need to consider that mindset I mentioned?

The mindset is wrong. I do believe something should be done to reduce and prevent rape from ever happening. But feminists crying about women being more likely to be raped because of gender inequality is a non sequitur. The solution isn't in achieving something that's already been achieved but in actually fixing what needs to be fixed.

I believe the disposition to rape (in cultures that discourage rape) lies mainly in childhood environment (with possibly a bit of genetics behind it as well), but whatever the cause behind why people rape, it's not the laws that are doing much to hinder it, and it's irrelevant to the discussion of feminism and women's legal rights when they've already been granted these rights.

No, but if the laws that are in place to protect those rights are ignored by the ones who should do the protecting, the situation is likely to be worse, don't you think?

There may be some relative improvement, but it'll still be a significant number of rape cases as one can see in Australia and USA.

No one should be raped, ever. But let's compare the situation in Australia:



The article is here and focusses on childhood sexual abuse and sexual assault of males.

I think it's safe to say that women are at far greater risk. Would you agree? But more importantly, how would you you explain it?

I don't dispute that women are at higher risk. As for how I would explain it. Well, it seems to be happening in every culture in the world, past and present. If rape of women is common in all cultures (even those that may that espouse feministic ideals) as this study has shown:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=136932

then it's not patriarchy that's the main reason for rape.

So if we want to do something to fix this, placing the blame on the wrong entity isn't going to do the trick.

How about other colours?

http://www.wgbhnews.org/post/human-trafficking-modern-day-slavery-america

And yes, black, too:

http://www.theroot.com/views/black-girls-are-still-enslaved

Not very subtle, I'm afraid, but very real.

Ok, but this is in spite of the law and not encouraged by the state. So I actually think you are not getting me at all.

The article starts with a rather more sombre "Yes, there is greater equity between the sexes, but overall, the pay gap continues to favour men" and then concludes with "After all, men's earnings start to outstrip women's from the age of 29 – precisely when Mrs Average now has her first child."

But here's the thing: this is an exception to the rule. If there was no gender gap, the statistics would probably fluctuate. But they don't really.

I do think there's a lot to work on yet.

I agree there is work to be done, but in order to fix something, you need to first identify exactly what the cause(s) is/are.

The Ledbetter Act should've narrowed the gap in America by now if there was gender discrimination going on and yet, from what I've been reading, it hasn't really done much.

[Calavera]

Nice try, but let's first stick to the different pay based on gender for same job argument first. Care to back up the claim that women get less pay for same job and same circumstances based on gender discrimination?

Oh, and in the Western world. Don't even go to India or elsewhere.

this is in my city,  and it only shows a tip of the iceberg.  it still goes on.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/cost-birmingham-city-council-equal-1766049


    By Neil Elkes

Cost of Birmingham City Council equal pay claims rockets to £890 million
21 Mar 2013 07:00

Councillor calls payouts " a monument to our incompetence" after audit reveals an extra £130m to add on to bill
Share on print Share on email
The Council House. The Council House.

The cost of equal pay claims against Birmingham City Council has rocketed by £130 million to an incredible £890 million after a new bombshell audit.

The total has risen in the last year as new claims have come forward and the council auditors have revised the sums.

Last year another group of 174 former women care, cleaning and catering workers, known as the Abdullah Group who had retired, won the right to make backdated claims against the council, not only adding to the bill but prompting more claims to come forward.

The council has been hammered for failing to meet equal pay regulations by giving discriminatory bonuses and better working conditions to mainly male binmen and road workers, compared to mainly female roles like carers and cleaners.

I only read the summary you posted here. I'll check the link later when I have more time to read.

But just wanted to point out:

Cleaners tend to earn less than bin men regardless of gender. I used to be a cleaner at one time.

[bodie]

Nice try, but let's first stick to the different pay based on gender for same job argument first. Care to back up the claim that women get less pay for same job and same circumstances based on gender discrimination?

Oh, and in the Western world. Don't even go to India or elsewhere.

this is in my city,  and it only shows a tip of the iceberg.  it still goes on.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/cost-birmingham-city-council-equal-1766049


    By Neil Elkes

Cost of Birmingham City Council equal pay claims rockets to £890 million
21 Mar 2013 07:00

Councillor calls payouts " a monument to our incompetence" after audit reveals an extra £130m to add on to bill
Share on print Share on email
The Council House. The Council House.

The cost of equal pay claims against Birmingham City Council has rocketed by £130 million to an incredible £890 million after a new bombshell audit.

The total has risen in the last year as new claims have come forward and the council auditors have revised the sums.

Last year another group of 174 former women care, cleaning and catering workers, known as the Abdullah Group who had retired, won the right to make backdated claims against the council, not only adding to the bill but prompting more claims to come forward.

The council has been hammered for failing to meet equal pay regulations by giving discriminatory bonuses and better working conditions to mainly male binmen and road workers, compared to mainly female roles like carers and cleaners.

I only read the summary you posted here. I'll check the link later when I have more time to read.

But just wanted to point out:

Cleaners tend to earn less than bin men regardless of gender. I used to be a cleaner at one time.

Did you wear a little apron? 

Nah, they have won their case though.  I actually think bin men are  and i went out with one once until he told me had found a finger... put me off,  kept asking him to wash his hands, it was over.   I think our bin men are undervalued.

The other example was middle management....?

[Calavera]

Ok, about the second link you posted, fair enough. I never did dispute the gap, though. The gap is there, but what is the significant cause?

"Similar jobs" is a bit too vague for me. What do they mean by that exactly? Same job, different positions? Different jobs, but same "category"?

I don't know what else to say exactly here other than extra details needed.

[Calavera]

Just a bit of a sidetrack, concerning child abuse in (including adolescent abuse) India:

I found this a disturbing but interesting read:

http://wcd.nic.in/childabuse.pdf

Both males and females suffer same rate of abuse basically.

[Calavera]

According to Wikipedia, Australia has one of the highest rates when it comes to rape:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Sexual_Violence_against_Children_.26_Rape_Statistics

Compare to countries like Greece, Armenia, hell, even Senegal, and notice the big difference. And these are patriarchical countries we're talking about.

Japan is another patriarchical country and it has an extremely low rate.

[RageBeoulve]

The answer is killing people who wish to be MORE than equal.