Author Topic: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.  (Read 6701 times)

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Offline odeon

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #120 on: May 04, 2013, 02:02:10 AM »
A man will not get raped in India without severe consequences, mate. There are laws in place there but only the men will be protected by them.

And what happens if they were to start putting laws in India to protect women from rape?

Are they going to stop being raped all of a sudden? As you stated, even men in India are raped. And yet they're supposed to have rights.

You are completely missing my point. There *are* laws in place there but a violation is acted on differently depending on the victim's sex.

And no, of course they'll not stop being raped all of a sudden but it's a helluva lot easier to rape someone if you know that the law will not come after you.

Did you know that young women in India have been raped openly in public transport and elsewhere, without anyone interfering? That instead of interfering, the driver participated? How fucked up is that?

Do you honestly think that will happen to a man?
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Offline odeon

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #121 on: May 04, 2013, 02:22:04 AM »
Women are not as weak as you make them out to be. And they are not any more victims of cultural disadvantages than men are.

Care to back this up? Humanity has literally thousands of years to make up for when it comes to women being the victims of "cultural disadvantages", from the right to vote to equal pay to - yes - protection from rape. The list goes on.

History past. Black people are no longer slaves in the USA. So it wouldn't make sense to argue that black people are being deprived of rights now because they used to be slaves in the past.

As for protection of rape, I already made my point clear. It has nothing to do with rights. Rape will continue to be committed regardless of rights.

Past history? Oh please, you are being naïve. Do you honestly think the end of the civil war put an end to the underlying problem, somehow? I'm pretty sure a sociologist would be able to show you how the causes of the more lasting inequalities between the black and the white do stem from that time. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement_%281955%E2%80%931968%29 regarding the history of the African-American Civil Rights Movement.

The state-approved slavery was not the root cause, though. The social mindset that allowed it to happen was, and it has not been erased. Racism and bigotry are both alive and well, and depending on where you are in the world, the state might even encourage you in one direction or the other.

Similarly, there is a mindset in place regarding women's rights. I do think it is changing but we're not there yet, not by a long shot. And of course rape will continue to be committed because there will always be rapists, but in time some of the attitudes often used as a defence in court ("she was dressed like a whore, how was I supposed to know?") may change because a lot of those are sociological and can be changed.

If society wants them to change.
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Offline odeon

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2013, 02:35:44 AM »
Nice try, but let's first stick to the different pay based on gender for same job argument first. Care to back up the claim that women get less pay for same job and same circumstances based on gender discrimination?

Oh, and in the Western world. Don't even go to India or elsewhere.

Here's a somewhat depressing news article.

This graph gives an overview. You might want to read the article in which the graph is referenced. I find this quote about the gender pay gap in Australia quite interesting, for example:

Quote
Australia has a persistent gender pay gap. Between 1990 and 2009, the gender pay gap remained within a narrow range of between 15 and 17%.[25] In August 2010, the Australian gender pay gap was 16.9%

And a bit further down:

Quote
Watson also notes that despite the "characteristics of male and female managers being remarkably similar, their earnings are very different, suggesting that discrimination plays an important role in this outcome."

Now, you will argue that people are in disagreement over the causes, and that is true. But it is interesting to note that all over the world, whatever the causes, the results point in the same direction.
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Offline Calavera

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #123 on: May 04, 2013, 04:59:39 AM »
I define rights as privileges granted by the state. Now if we're in a country where women are already granted the same rights as men in many aspects (including when it comes to protection from rape), and yet rape continues to happen, what point is it then to argue that women are continually being raped when attempting to show why women still don't have the rights that men have?

Just because one has rights doesn't mean people will respect his/her rights.

Now you mentioned India for some reason when really the original argument between me and McJagger was focused on the women who live in much more fortunate conditions who yell about injustice here and there and shift the blame on every other entity out there instead of owning whatever perceived inequality they may be suffering and doing something about it without implicitly or explicitly putting down the opposite gender for everything that women have gone through.

And as for men in India, they may have privileges and honors that women lack there, but in Australia and USA and the likes, a lot of the time, if a man says he was raped, people tend to not take it as seriously as when women report being raped. Is this not one injustice that men themselves have to face? And yet it is just one of many. People of all sorts face injustice, whether based on gender, race, lack of religion, etc. It's not just women who suffer.

Also, I said that slavery stopped a while ago, but I didn't say that racism itself stopped with slavery. Even today, I notice several racist people against the black. But the point is you would be hard pressed to see a black person being treated as a slave in America.

Gender pay difference leaning in favor of men is understandable if you look at all the factors behind why men altogether have higher pay. In many nations, men have had higher positions, higher privileges, and more reasons to work in high positions than women. Not necessarily due to gender discrimination but due to various social, cultural and even biopsychological differences between both genders.

And yet, it's not always the case that men get higher pay than women.

Consider men and women within the age range of 20-29. Guess which gender is getting higher pay?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/27/young-women-earning-more-men

I don't think this is due to companies only now ceasing to discriminate against working women based on gender, but simply because more and more women are becoming daring and ambitious when it comes to work within the current zeitgeist and, in addition, to organizations and other groups going out of their way to offer jobs and careers for women only (the university I go to being just one example), it is easy to see why.

Offline McGiver

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #124 on: May 04, 2013, 06:33:04 AM »
Actually, it was you who wanted the topic to remain focused solely on women in the western world.
I was obliging, reluctantly and for the sake of a challenge.
IMHO, women are women all over the world.
Read up on female genital mutilation.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #125 on: May 04, 2013, 07:26:18 AM »
Actually, it was you who wanted the topic to remain focused solely on women in the western world.
I was obliging, reluctantly and for the sake of a challenge.
IMHO, women are women all over the world.
Read up on female genital mutilation.

I dunno about that. It is like the argument of putting your feet in the freezer and your head in an oven and saying "On average I feel fine"
It becomes meaningless.
Women in third world countries ARE disempowered. But if we are talking women's rights and trying to shackle Western Women's rights and Woman of the world in general you are suffering the fate of the above statement. The two in contrast and ought to be seen that way.
If things like rape are bought into play, I see it as a bit of a red herring. Like child abuse, rape is an unfortunate aspect of society. Sickos will always be part of society and this will be a societal problem. But it is not something that will be curtailed by recognition of rights or by  legislating against it or by enforcement of rape laws....but these things MUST happen in any decent society.
Difference in pay between mean and women under the exact circumstances, in countries that legislate against it, I find dubious and also a bit of a non-issue. If there is a law against it then the employers are obliged to follow it and if they don't they risk prosecution. Just like if there are strict rules for health and safety and employers do not follow it they risk being prosecuted.
Is that society discriminating against women or a particular employer not following the law and risking prosecution. I say it is not a place for such an argument. If the law is enforceable and enforced on instances where it is discovered that an employer has done the wrong thing then it really ought not be part of such a debate, imho
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

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Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

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Offline McGiver

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #126 on: May 04, 2013, 07:29:58 AM »
That's like saying I care about the rights of my daughter but not my nieces.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #127 on: May 04, 2013, 07:58:17 AM »
That's like saying I care about the rights of my daughter but not my nieces.

Yes of course it is McJagger. What I said, broken down, says exactly that.....or there is some serious reading comprehension afoot and I am not going to defend such a ridiculous response.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline McGiver

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #128 on: May 04, 2013, 08:10:17 AM »
I enjoy concise.

I support feminism because it is still necessary.  Like odeon stated so clearly, it is about societies mindset. Not laws.
Laws help.  But women have a long way to go before the birthright of being male is no more. 
I agree that my daughters expectations are different than my wife's were when she was their age.  And my grand daughter (someday) will be yet different.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #129 on: May 04, 2013, 08:30:22 AM »
I enjoy concise.

I support feminism because it is still necessary.  Like odeon stated so clearly, it is about societies mindset. Not laws.
Laws help.  But women have a long way to go before the birthright of being male is no more. 
I agree that my daughters expectations are different than my wife's were when she was their age.  And my grand daughter (someday) will be yet different.

Are you saying whether there are differences in socialisation between women and men? Male and females? Different expectations? Different values or societal pressures? Are you imagining that the things that divide us are necessarily bad by virtue of their difference? Or whether there will ever be a time conceivable whether the difference between male and female will be anything but anatomical?

I honestly don't know?
My daughter as far as i can tell apart from these societal pressures (which I for one would be happy to do away with) like the studs/whores differences, The judging on beauty above all things, the make up thing, the need for girls to be pressured into diets and so on . I would be happy for these difference to be done away with BUT I know the study and work opportunities are the same and unlike her grandmothers, she is protected of her rights in law.

Now ask me if my daughter was from a remote African village  or from a Bangladesh village or a Guatemala village would I have that hope. Well no but that does not reduce her rights that these unfortunate girls have no the rights she has.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline McGiver

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #130 on: May 04, 2013, 08:34:02 AM »
No, the differences are not bad by virtue if all things are equal.

I don't think they are equal....yet.

Do I think things are moving in the right direction? Yes!
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Offline bodie

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #131 on: May 04, 2013, 08:37:54 AM »
Nice try, but let's first stick to the different pay based on gender for same job argument first. Care to back up the claim that women get less pay for same job and same circumstances based on gender discrimination?

Oh, and in the Western world. Don't even go to India or elsewhere.

this is in my city,  and it only shows a tip of the iceberg.  it still goes on.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/cost-birmingham-city-council-equal-1766049


    By Neil Elkes

Cost of Birmingham City Council equal pay claims rockets to £890 million
21 Mar 2013 07:00

Councillor calls payouts " a monument to our incompetence" after audit reveals an extra £130m to add on to bill
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The Council House. The Council House.

The cost of equal pay claims against Birmingham City Council has rocketed by £130 million to an incredible £890 million after a new bombshell audit.

The total has risen in the last year as new claims have come forward and the council auditors have revised the sums.

Last year another group of 174 former women care, cleaning and catering workers, known as the Abdullah Group who had retired, won the right to make backdated claims against the council, not only adding to the bill but prompting more claims to come forward.

The council has been hammered for failing to meet equal pay regulations by giving discriminatory bonuses and better working conditions to mainly male binmen and road workers, compared to mainly female roles like carers and cleaners.
blah blah blah

Offline bodie

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #132 on: May 04, 2013, 09:20:42 AM »
here  is another example of unequal pay
http://money.aol.co.uk/2012/05/14/network-rail-faces-equal-pay-claim/

An equal pay case is being taken against Network Rail (NR) on behalf of 34 women amid claims that female staff are earning thousands of pounds less than men for doing similar jobs.

The Transport Salaried Staffs' Association said it was taking the largest ever equal pay claim in the rail industry, claiming it could end up costing NR millions of pounds.
 The union is due to outline details of the case at its annual conference in Cardiff, including claims for more than £25,000 in back pay for the 34 women, who work in middle management.
How the rich get richer

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General secretary Manuel Cortes said the women were "the tip of the iceberg", adding that hundreds more claims could eventually be brought against the rail infrastructure firm.

He said an equal pay survey of 2,000 staff had revealed the pay gap of £4,500 at NR.

"That is just an average figure, in some cases the gap is as high as £10,000. This is completely unacceptable in a firm which receives the majority of its funding from the taxpayer.
blah blah blah

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #133 on: May 04, 2013, 11:09:51 AM »
As a little girl i heard about Emiline Pankhurst and the Suffragettes movement. 'Wow' i thought when i heard of how they handcuffed themselves to Downing st, and how they got arrested. 

They were hero status for a time.  *the suffragettes fought for women*

and then i grew up and read the books for myself.   :'(

I was gutted to learn that actually they were only interested in obtaining the vote for certain types of women.  That is women with status and women with money.  They were not interested in elevating women in general.  They were only interested in furthering themselves and those women who enjoyed upper class status.

They were quickly knocked off the pedestal.   It was disappointing.   :grrr:

Here in the Netherlands it went just in an other order. So, that disappointment wasn't there for me. Two liberation movements active at the same time. The common man got voting rights in 1917, in 1918 women got the right to get elected, in 1919 women got voting rights. 1922 were the first elections where all could participate.
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Re: I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.
« Reply #134 on: May 04, 2013, 11:26:28 AM »
My main political issue is workers rights.

I believe the main nemeses to workers rights is the exploitation of labor by capitalism practiced to its nth degree. I see major retailers as the #1 target on my hit list.  All down the supply chain they exploit workers and demand this through their buying power and market share.

Walmart (Asda for you) is the biggest of the big.  And it is their business model that others need to consider if they wish to compete. 
Now, I'd love to see them all fall and emerge in their place the "mom and pop" store.

Even though I think that Target, Hobby Lobby, Staples, etc should all fall I concentrate my efforts on Walmart.  They, to me, are an appropriate first step.  Watch them fall and see labor rise, IMHO. 
So I snipe.  I make correlations between their customers and fat people, short-sided people and lazy, etc.  small steps.  I try to convince one person at a time, through shame or reasoned debate not to shop there.
If that first step is ever accomplished I will move on to Target for instance.

Every step I toppling the system is ok.  Therefore I support feminism because I am anti status quo.

I don't support any isms because they always lean towards one demographic. I will never accept anyone being superior or more important than any other. EVER. No matter how dumb, ugly, smart, or good looking someone may be. No matter what strengths or weaknesses anyone has, EVERYONE is just as important as the next, and deserves the exact same respect and privilege as the person to their left and right.

I will never think any other way. I believe in PURE equality, and I always will. In my mind, if anyone challenges this, they are selfish, and a tyrant to be defeated as soon as possible.

I get where you are coming from, but, sometimes the -ism is needed to make the change of perspective seen.

When my mother married, at 28 ffs, she had to get permission of her parents.
Married women were not seen as legal persons when it came to buying and selling till late in the fifties of last century.
A woman who married and who had a job paid by the government was likely to get unemployed the moment she said yes to her husband. My grandmother was an exception, she got to teach, even after tying the knot. Even more exceptional, she got to teach after getting a child. 1934 the rules were made tighter, so, all married women in jobs payed by the government got sacked. And she got sacked too. In some areas in the Netherlands that rule stayed till 1969.

Feminism was a change of perspective. Not looking at the status quo as right, but looking at it from another POV. In that it was not that different from other liberation movements. And, POV's of feminists differed a lot.
In the late seventies and early eighties, feminists questioned the disability culture in my country, noticing how lots of doctors filed way more women as disabled than men, after having had an illness. Lots of doctors still were believing in the culture of women belonging at home, and men earning the money.
In the Netherlands, feminism led to joint custody as a default setting, when a divorce is happening. In other countries it did not.
There are feminists who want to struggle for the rights of women, till the time it is good enough, and then stop. There are feminists who think women are a better kind of people. And there are plenty of other directions in feminism. In autism groups you see similar things happening. Some groups just want to have their own voices heard, and not being decided upon without being heard. Others go for supremacy. All human faults can be found in every group of society.

Feminism, gay movements, labour movements, all kinds of liberation movements made people look different at law, religion, society. And, those different POV's did change things. It's not about being PC, it is about having and claiming rights. And, having and claiming duties that come with those rights. Of course there are always morons trying to have it the convenient way, wanting rights without the plights. But those people suck, no matter what they claim to be.
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