I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.

[Al Swearegen]

Al, if you're wondering why people are getting confused, then maybe you should look at the title of this thread... that is the context for this thread right, so bringing up rape in the thread is adding extra confusion to the topic right!?

I have looked at the title of the thread and read every post. Anything else you were wanting to suggest it do? Have you done so much yourself? Are you asking redundant questions? Am I?
I think the topic is actually something hijacked regularly into gender inequality debates and has no place in the debates on discrimination or gender inequality.

[Calavera]

I think that rape is up there with any other crime you would choose to throw out there. Men who do this are subhuman and oxygen thieves. I know that this has somehow been tied into a debate on equality. So what is the argument in general terms?
Because it happens to more women than men it is an inequality? That would be a silly argument.
It should happen to more men to realign the balance? That would be odd
More women should be given the opportunity to be rapists to close the difference in the percentage of male to female perpetrators? Odd

Ought it REALLY have a place in equality debates? Ought men similarly make demands to be able to carry babies or give birth as an equality issue?

It all seems silly. Rape is many horrible things. It is an important issue in its own right but hijacking it into an equality debate is bizzare

Totally agreed. Rape i sick and wrong on many levels. But so is murder of husband by wife who has always been after his money.

Should we talk about the "Evil Wives" in order to fight feminism? It doesn't make sense. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to talk about the rate of rape among women (what about men?) when discussing equality and rights. Of course, women should be protected from rape and such, I don't know of any civilized culture that disagrees.

[McGiver]

I think that rape is up there with any other crime you would choose to throw out there. Men who do this are subhuman and oxygen thieves. I know that this has somehow been tied into a debate on equality. So what is the argument in general terms?
Because it happens to more women than men it is an inequality? That would be a silly argument.
It should happen to more men to realign the balance? That would be odd
More women should be given the opportunity to be rapists to close the difference in the percentage of male to female perpetrators? Odd

Ought it REALLY have a place in equality debates? Ought men similarly make demands to be able to carry babies or give birth as an equality issue?

It all seems silly. Rape is many horrible things. It is an important issue in its own right but hijacking it into an equality debate is bizzare

i made a point about birthright entitlement.  I was questioned about that.  It has everything to do with it.  And societal conditioning.

Al, you gave one example where women, may or may not be more equal than men. Itwas personal for you and I can appreciate your plight.  However, I believe a women's coalition is necessary in Orr to fight for equality.  I need further proof that women ARE, IN FACT, TREATED EQUALLY IN SOCIETY.
I just don't see it.

Evidence would help.  Thesis papers not so much.

[Calavera]

I actually don't agree that men are treated equally even. You expect equal treatment between men and women by society? There are things women have it better than men, and others where men have it better. For example, women have more sexual power than men and often have men fawning all over them and doing idiotic things for them just so these women could sleep with them. Women may have it worse in the sense that they are expected to be a certain personality type in order to be considered acceptable and decent by society. And so on.

So you're right, not much equality, but that's life.

[Al Swearegen]

I think that rape is up there with any other crime you would choose to throw out there. Men who do this are subhuman and oxygen thieves. I know that this has somehow been tied into a debate on equality. So what is the argument in general terms?
Because it happens to more women than men it is an inequality? That would be a silly argument.
It should happen to more men to realign the balance? That would be odd
More women should be given the opportunity to be rapists to close the difference in the percentage of male to female perpetrators? Odd

Ought it REALLY have a place in equality debates? Ought men similarly make demands to be able to carry babies or give birth as an equality issue?

It all seems silly. Rape is many horrible things. It is an important issue in its own right but hijacking it into an equality debate is bizzare

i made a point about birthright entitlement.  I was questioned about that.  It has everything to do with it.  And societal conditioning.

Al, you gave one example where women, may or may not be more equal than men. Itwas personal for you and I can appreciate your plight.  However, I believe a women's coalition is necessary in Orr to fight for equality.  I need further proof that women ARE, IN FACT, TREATED EQUALLY IN SOCIETY.
I just don't see it.

Evidence would help.  Thesis papers not so much.

What do you mean as equally?

No I am not trying to be pedantic BUT.....

Being treated differently is not necessarily being treated as unequal
Being given same opportunities but not grasping those opportunities is not unequal
Being abused, hurt, murdered, violated or whatever outside of what is accepted or allowed by society is not being treated as unequal?
Showing stats s raw figures without any underlying explanation is not in itself proof of...well anything.

At my work. I can usually tell within the first two months, who is going to really get on in the workplace. It has little to do with gender. The opportunities are the same and gender is not a disadvantage. Talent and effort and attitude is rewarded.
But in a department full of people, it is the men that usually rise the ranks. Not all men. There is a bottle neck and some are happy to not make a noise or put in.
At the moment there are maybe 6 people there foisting and jostling to move into management and there to impress and sell and take on any responsibilities they can. 2 are women. 1 I am sure within 6 months will be a team leader or will be sidestepped into a similarly graded role. There is a guy who is on equal footing with her. The other girl is not quite as pro-active and is given opportunities but has not really taken them on. It is precisely the one in 6 thing I was talking about before (though this is at least 2 in 6) BUT the difference in representation is NOT bias nor poor treatment.
I spoke to the girl that is doing well. She lives with her partner who has a few kids from an ill fated marriage. They are trying to get on and save up. She said about 3 months ago that she is going to bust her balls to get noticed and promoted. Well on her way. I have heard this a number of times. On each of occasion it has been men. They either do exactly that or lose momentum and faith and leave.
The difference is unequal but not biased. 

[McGiver]

If you have sex with a woman and a pregnancy occurs who is left holding the bag?
In America there is a huge drive by conservatives to limit or even ban abortions.  And access to birth control.  These are huge examples of why women are not treated equally.

Men, in America, work less or even quit their jobs before they go to court for child support hearings. 

The correlation between these actions proves that women are not treated fairly simply because if gender and procreative ability.
Couple that with unequal pay, which exists and women are simply kept in their place....relying on men for comfort and survival.  Subservient is their place.

[Al Swearegen]

If you have sex with a woman and a pregnancy occurs who is left holding the bag?
In America there is a huge drive by conservatives to limit or even ban abortions.  And access to birth control.  These are huge examples of why women are not treated equally.

Men, in America, work less or even quit their jobs before they go to court for child support hearings. 

The correlation between these actions proves that women are not treated fairly simply because if gender and procreative ability.
Couple that with unequal pay, which exists and women are simply kept in their place....relying on men for comfort and survival.  Subservient is their place.

Yeah I have known of some men that have quit their jobs for the same reasons.
They find that they are in return for this crafty manoeuvring depriving themselves of any ability to really support themselves or rebuild their life. They realise too late that they are too far out of the workforce to get back in. They have no relationship with kids and usually have turned to drugs or alcohol. Pathetic.
Those women? YES they get support from society. They raise their kids and get parenting pension from the government and help with rent and the like. They get support from various organisations set up to benefit single mums.
It IS hard. But it is doable. Quite often too they are helped in making good networks to compliment any existing family support networks.

You are right though McJagger women not getting access to the pill or abortions is unequal to men who DO have that access. It is very unequal.......or were you saying that neither had access? Or were you saying that men did not have the ability to have babies and therefore can not have abortions or go on the pill?
The equality bit in this train of thought is lost to me.

I think most of the rest of what you said is stretching. There may well be some unequal pay. I do not know where that is. I hear a lot about glass ceiling (usually by female academics and managers and journalists at the top of their pack in their specific field...ironically. I may be misunderstanding the unequal pay thing BUT I would imagine that IF they are talking about same job description and same level the pay will be the same. I would question statistics to the contrary and how they gauged them. Especially as it is against the law and companies risk big fines and or imprisonment for breaching this.

I think it is just like the glass ceiling thing. "There are not enough women in management and it is the company's fault because they deliberately keep the women down...rar....." So the company advertises a women's only management training course and promotes it in the oprganisation and advertises some management positions and go to pains to promote its equality. 70% are male. Take up in the management course is down. Reminders are sent out and so it goes and no greater involvement.

Stats will say that the company is weighted in management towards males and it is an unequal opportunist. Is that fair or accurate and are the figures reliable or accurate?

[RageBeoulve]

Yet women ( on average), in the same job with the same education do not make the same as men.

Any evidence?

impatient and dense.
 I already provided a link.  You can do your own research.

I have to go to work.  See, instead of crying that life isn't fair, that the women's rights coalition is beating us poor men down, I choose to do something for myself.  Right now I'm going to earn a living.
Also, instead of living in fear that everybody is against the straight white male I embrace others plight for equity.  I choose to not live in fear.
It is quite freeing, others should try it.

In the meantime, I am happy to see women earn at the same rate as men.  Have health protections such as abortion rights. Happy to see them free from being the property of men.  These are good things.  I wish them more of it.

Its not fear, its anger. I cannot understand why a person would desire being more than equal to anyone else. This to me, is a selfish, evil, vile impulse and must be destroyed. Period.

[Calavera]

I'm surprised you haven't burst from anger. This kind of thing has been going on from ever since humankind emerged.

I think, for the sake of sanity, it's healthier to just accept that there will always be some form of inequality (or difference) in our lives, whether socially intended or just simply an inevitable outcome of nature.

[RageBeoulve]

I'm surprised you haven't burst from anger. This kind of thing has been going on from ever since humankind emerged.

I think, for the sake of sanity, it's healthier to just accept that there will always be some form of inequality (or difference) in our lives, whether socially intended or just simply an inevitable outcome of nature.

Yes. I know. 

It goes against everything that I am, and I can't actually stop it completely. But I CAN kick someone's ass when I see it happening.  Makes me feel a bit better.

[Dexter Morgan]

[RageBeoulve]

I loled hard. I think Toms a fuckface but he pulled a pretty good act there.

[odeon]

Men are raped as well, but even so, rape has nothing to do with whether women of today have rights or not that men have.

Have you been following what is going on in India? Rape has everything to do with the rights women have. Or do not have, in this case. In India, it is still possible to get away with rape because society will blame you if you are a victim, the police will actively suggest you to not report the crime, and the judges will be biased if it does go to court.

There may be laws in place for perceived, skin-deep equality but you will be put in your place if you actually seek it.

You can tell that to the feminists in the more civilized nations (like USA) who are too busy attacking an imaginary entity and trying to put men, in general, in a negative light (unless they suck up to them and agree with everything they say) and don't have time to be concerned about the more serious issues going on in other countries like the one you stated.

Also, even if laws were put to protect women from being raped, this wouldn't stop rape from happening. So this shows that having rights is one thing and the probability of getting raped is another thing. There may be a link, but a man or a woman may still get raped within a society that has laws to punish rape.

A man will not get raped in India without severe consequences, mate. There are laws in place there but only the men will be protected by them.

[odeon]

Women are not as weak as you make them out to be. And they are not any more victims of cultural disadvantages than men are.

Care to back this up? Humanity has literally thousands of years to make up for when it comes to women being the victims of "cultural disadvantages", from the right to vote to equal pay to - yes - protection from rape. The list goes on.

[RageBeoulve]

Al, if you're wondering why people are getting confused, then maybe you should look at the title of this thread... that is the context for this thread right, so bringing up rape in the thread is adding extra confusion to the topic right!?

Dude some people are so desperate to justify extra priveliges for the bullshit "demographic" of their choice, that they'll make just about any leap of logic or pander to any irrelevant emo issue. Ignore it.