Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

[El]

I don't get why you keep talking about gyms as if a gym is the only place to get exercise. Snow doesn't prevent a person from walking down the sidewalk unless there is freezing rain or a severe windchill.

I don't get the attitude that a person must FEEL safe before changing anything. There are degrees of safety, and fear can be a signal that there is danger in the environment but it can also be an internal reaction to breaking inertia and have nothing to do with the environment.

I don't think you can change Rage's personality and it's futile to try. If he is aggressive, simplistic and cocky, that makes him a good motivator for some types of people, a good shit-stirrer and discussion starter. If that makes for a bad policy-maker... I would question what systems are placing aggressive, simplistic and cocky people in positions where they're making binding decisions about things they don't know much about.

I brought up the issue of gyms because Rage thinks free gyms are omnipresent and he's wrong.

You obviously were not living in the same place I was this winter if you think snow doesn't keep people from because able to walk on sidewalks.  Or else you didn't grasp that I meant "accumulation."  The cities around here sometimes do a good job of clearing sidewalks, but some towns end up with none, *and* with narrowed roads, if there's enough snowfall.

re:  Safety:  You have different views on the value of safety than I do, and also different than many other people.  There are some places (towns, neighborhoods, streets) many just don't want to go walking alone in as a general rule, and moreso depending on time of day, gender, and personal views and past experiences of safety, or lack thereof.  These places are, might I add, usually the places it is easier to afford to live in- i.e. if you are poor, you are more likely to live someplace it's not safe to go for a walk.

I am not trying to change Rage's personality, and I don't know why you're implying that I'm trying to.

The aggressive part is almost a given to rise to a certain level of power unless it's inherited (or essentially inherited).  The simplistic part is a bigger deal.  The ignorant part is the killer.

[Pyraxis]

I grew up in central Canada, girl, and walked to school through plenty of snow, uphill both ways...
Kidding, the prairie was pancake-flat, there were no hills.

I didn't pick up that Rage was obsessing over gyms.

As for safety, I actually thought it was more common to get jumped as an early-morning jogger if you were in an affluent park area. But there are also various types of exercise you can do in your own home. I'm not out to deny that safety is ever an issue, just looking to weed through excuses. But are you wanting to shift to discussion on a systemic level, new programs that could be implemented, changes that could be made to get the existing ones more effective, that kind of thing? Or maybe culture and inspiration, effective role models for demonstrating the skills necessary to overcome poverty?

Not getting it.

[RageBeoulve]

OK, rage.  To start, I'll just quote my previous reply on this issue.

The specific issue I'll additionally address is that the notion that gyms are universally accessible and affordable is bullshit.  People also don't always have safe places to go out walking- or FEEL safe.  Depending on where you live, there may be months at a time where going out walking isn't really a reasonable expectation because of extremity of cold and/or snow accumulation making sidewalks inaccessible.

re:  Who does and does not have medical problems:  How do you know the percentage of people with "legitimate" medical problems, Rage?  Can you quote me statistics on this?  Can you cite credible sources?  You have the good luck to, apparently, be reasonably healthy, young, and free of disabling pain.  That doesn't mean everyone else is the same way.

Yes, there's lots of food available.  Good-quality food, no.  It's harder to access and it's more expensive and takes more effort.  If you assume limited access to good-quality food, then you get into the issues that come with only having access to poor-quality food.  It's not simply an issue of eating less of it.  There's also the havoc shitty food (AS WELL as inadequate nutrition- and these can be tandem problems) can wreak on your body, and on your head.

Okay Elle. It seems that you just don't realize how serious a problem this is, and you doubt that i've done any real research. I must seem just a stupid passionate jock to you eh?  I digress. I will HELP you see the truth by providing sources, and real numbers.

And I do not disagree with you about the foodservice industry. Its fucking ridiculous, and i'm aware of that, but it still does not merit the numbers which I will be presenting to you. First off, I will post some links, and let you look for yourself. Your unfit for work link was a good one, but a bit to vague tho show the actual gravity of the point i've been trying to make. In the next couple of days, I will begin to pick things out of them for you when I have the time, helping you to see the information more clearly. Fair and rational, yes?

http://www.copower.org/models-of-disability.html

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/05/22-million-go-on-disability-since-mid.html

http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/testimony_012412.html

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/mikeshedlock/2012/02/21/newest_government_magic_trick_disability_fraud_holds_down_unemployment_rate_disability_hits_record_200b/page/full/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2013/04/08/how-americans-game-the-200-billion-a-year-disability-industrial-complex/

[El]

OK, rage.  To start, I'll just quote my previous reply on this issue.

The specific issue I'll additionally address is that the notion that gyms are universally accessible and affordable is bullshit.  People also don't always have safe places to go out walking- or FEEL safe.  Depending on where you live, there may be months at a time where going out walking isn't really a reasonable expectation because of extremity of cold and/or snow accumulation making sidewalks inaccessible.

re:  Who does and does not have medical problems:  How do you know the percentage of people with "legitimate" medical problems, Rage?  Can you quote me statistics on this?  Can you cite credible sources?  You have the good luck to, apparently, be reasonably healthy, young, and free of disabling pain.  That doesn't mean everyone else is the same way.

Yes, there's lots of food available.  Good-quality food, no.  It's harder to access and it's more expensive and takes more effort.  If you assume limited access to good-quality food, then you get into the issues that come with only having access to poor-quality food.  It's not simply an issue of eating less of it.  There's also the havoc shitty food (AS WELL as inadequate nutrition- and these can be tandem problems) can wreak on your body, and on your head.

Okay Elle. It seems that you just don't realize how serious a problem this is, and you doubt that i've done any real research. I must seem just a stupid passionate jock to you eh?  I digress. I will HELP you see the truth by providing sources, and real numbers.

And I do not disagree with you about the foodservice industry. Its fucking ridiculous, and i'm aware of that, but it still does not merit the numbers which I will be presenting to you. First off, I will post some links, and let you look for yourself. Your unfit for work link was a good one, but a bit to vague tho show the actual gravity of the point i've been trying to make. In the next couple of days, I will begin to pick things out of them for you when I have the time, helping you to see the information more clearly. Fair and rational, yes?

http://www.copower.org/models-of-disability.html

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/05/22-million-go-on-disability-since-mid.html

http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/testimony_012412.html

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/mikeshedlock/2012/02/21/newest_government_magic_trick_disability_fraud_holds_down_unemployment_rate_disability_hits_record_200b/page/full/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2013/04/08/how-americans-game-the-200-billion-a-year-disability-industrial-complex/

See my reply to pyraxis below.  I'm not sure how the articles linked above have anything to do with your original babblings about fat people not moving their fat asses.

I grew up in central Canada, girl, and walked to school through plenty of snow, uphill both ways...
Kidding, the prairie was pancake-flat, there were no hills.

I didn't pick up that Rage was obsessing over gyms.

As for safety, I actually thought it was more common to get jumped as an early-morning jogger if you were in an affluent park area. But there are also various types of exercise you can do in your own home. I'm not out to deny that safety is ever an issue, just looking to weed through excuses. But are you wanting to shift to discussion on a systemic level, new programs that could be implemented, changes that could be made to get the existing ones more effective, that kind of thing? Or maybe culture and inspiration, effective role models for demonstrating the skills necessary to overcome poverty?

Not getting it.

Well, I was originally taking issue with Rage's initial response to this thread, which was to spam the first page of it with pictures of overweight people because Those Fat Fucks Are On Disability, and, as a subset, apparently, Fat people Are Lazy Fat Fucks, with the conclusion Fuck Those Fat Motherfucking Fucks On Disability, if I'm correctly understanding his worldview.

Now, I feel like on this thread, I am engaging in three debates.

1.  Whether or not fat people can help being fat/if it is their fault that they are fat.  (The issue of "should" has not been broached; it has been assumed that fat is bad.)
2.  All of the things are wrong with disability, and with people on it.  (see below)
3.  Whether or not I think Rage is wrong (and this seems to be being posited as my opinion regardless of specifics being discussed).

I think you want me to be arguing against everything so you can argue back against everything, 'raxis.  My original intent was as stated above.  Sorry to disappoint.

re:  #2: This is a shotgun issue, and when Rage started to lose face in the Fat people Are Lazy Fat Fucks side of things, he, it seems, started in on this.  Right now he seems to be going for the Too many People Are On Disability side of it, which strikes me as a silly way to back up the thesis of Fuck Those Fat Motherfucking Fucks On Disability in general, as well as in this context specifically.  That so many people are on disability is OBVIOUSLY a problem.  I've started two threads on it, now, ffs.  I think it's a systemic issue that is more the fault of the system (well, multiple systems) than of the people gaming it, but I agree that people gaming it is also a problem.

I don't think I ever said I don't think it's a problem, I just don't think there's a simple solution, and I also do not think living on disability is as cushy as Rage thinks it is, nor do I think life is as universally easy, in general, as Rage seems to think it is.

[RageBeoulve]

Elle. You're being awfully emotional. I was talking about laziness, disability fraud, and obesity being a nasty visual symptom of it. Did you look at the links?

[RageBeoulve]

1.  Whether or not fat people can help being fat/if it is their fault that they are fat.  (The issue of "should" has not been broached; it has been assumed that fat is bad.)

Ooooooh. I hope you aren't implying I said this. I CHALLENGE you to find it, and post a quote. 

All of the things are wrong with disability, and with people on it.

^Also completely taken out of context.  You're not even reading my posts are you?

[TheoK]

That "the fat ones should get off their asses" or the Swedish expression "grab yourself by the collar" are expressions of capitalism cultural hegemony. Just saying.

And I have not become a Bolshevik. Gramsci's theory is correct, though 

[RageBeoulve]

This is true lit, and just an evolved version of plato's model. But this is beside the point i'm trying to make. I'm not saying people should grab themselves by the collar for the benefit of the elite, but for the benefit of revolution. How are we supposed to fight off this system when a fourth of us won't even move their nasty bulk to pee?

[McGiver]

This is true lit, and just an evolved version of plato's model. But this is beside the point i'm trying to make. I'm not saying people should grab themselves by the collar for the benefit of the elite, but for the benefit of revolution. How are we supposed to fight off this system when a fourth of us won't even move their nasty bulk to pee?

maybe they play a lot of first person shooter games and you could utilize them as snipers.

Seriously dude, you love to point a finger and blame others.  If you were to lead a revolution I would expect you to utilize all your followers according to their talents.  Those with little use could be creatively exploited.

Nasty bulk....how lame of you,talking about others like that.
I understand if you say it off the cuff, from time to time, but after you've been called on it you continue to justify your preconditioned bigotry.

[Bastet]

This is true lit, and just an evolved version of plato's model. But this is beside the point i'm trying to make. I'm not saying people should grab themselves by the collar for the benefit of the elite, but for the benefit of revolution. How are we supposed to fight off this system when a fourth of us won't even move their nasty bulk to pee?

maybe they play a lot of first person shooter games and you could utilize them as snipers.

Seriously dude, you love to point a finger and blame others.  If you were to lead a revolution I would expect you to utilize all your followers according to their talents.  Those with little use could be creatively exploited.

Nasty bulk....how lame of you I talk about others like that.
I understand if you say it off the cuff, from time to time, but after you've been called on it you continue to justify your preconditioned bigotry.

[RageBeoulve]

This is true lit, and just an evolved version of plato's model. But this is beside the point i'm trying to make. I'm not saying people should grab themselves by the collar for the benefit of the elite, but for the benefit of revolution. How are we supposed to fight off this system when a fourth of us won't even move their nasty bulk to pee?

maybe they play a lot of first person shooter games and you could utilize them as snipers.

Seriously dude, you love to point a finger and blame others.  If you were to lead a revolution I would expect you to utilize all your followers according to their talents.  Those with little use could be creatively exploited.

Nasty bulk....how lame of you,talking about others like that.
I understand if you say it off the cuff, from time to time, but after you've been called on it you continue to justify your preconditioned bigotry.

Its nasty when there is no excuse for it, bud. I don't have to justify that. Yes I find being lazy and useless just for the sake of being lazy and useless to be a filthy and disgusting thing.

[McGiver]

Your point of view is what I imagine to see if I ever shopped at Walmart.  Really big fat people in their rascal scooters, saving a buck on Cheetos.

[RageBeoulve]

Your point of view is what I imagine to see if I ever shopped at Walmart.  Really big fat people in their rascal scooters, saving a buck on Cheetos.

And its a sad one isn't it? Its a shame that its true. I've got a present for you. Numbers and info.

The number of workers receiving Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) jumped 22 percent to 8.7 million in April from 7.1 million in December 2007, Social Security data show
Read more at http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/05/22-million-go-on-disability-since-mid.html#K2OE1z78i70OPw32.99

the share of working-age people holding a job or seeking one -- was 63.8 percent in March after falling to a three-decade low of 63.7 percent in January
Read more at http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/05/22-million-go-on-disability-since-mid.html#K2OE1z78i70OPw32.99

That means around thirty percent of U.S. Citizens weren't working in 2007. Whoa. With a disability spending of over 200 billion dollars a year now, more than twice as high as then, imagine all those fucks on their rascal scooters, man?

In addition, “difficult-to-verify disorders,” including muscle pain and mental illness, more easily qualify for SSDI under program reforms, [David] Autor [economist at Massachusetts Institute of Technology] wrote in a 2011 paper.
Read more at http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/05/22-million-go-on-disability-since-mid.html#K2OE1z78i70OPw32.99

Yeah. I got a bulging disc in my neck. My back hurts. I have assburgers. I got tinnitus in the army. I qualify for disability I guess. 

Assume for a sec that the disability fraud rate is only a piddling 10%(still WAY too much THIEVERY in my opinion) Check out these numbers bro.

Unemployment Rate with 10% Fraud

•10% of 27.5 million is 2,750,000.
•The civilian labor force would rise to 157,145,000 from 154,395,000
•The number of unemployed would rise to 15,508,000 from 12,758,000
•The resultant unemployment rate would be 15508/157145 = 9.9%

^That should be pretty scary. The fraud rate is way higher, and i'll prove it eventually.

In the last year, the civilian population rose by 3,638,000. Yet the labor force only rose by 945,000. Those not in the labor force rose by 2,693,000.

 In the last month, actual employment fell by 169,000, but the unemployment rate dropped by .1%.

 That is an amazing "achievement" to say the least.


 

[Peter]

A level of fraud of 10% or above would be quite something.  In the UK, benefits fraud is 0.7%, but the public perception is that it's 27%.

[TheoK]

The general public is dumb. The real parasites are the politicians and - in both Sweden and the UK - the royal family.