Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault

[RageBeoulve]

This is true, but giving up and getting lazy makes it worse. How are we supposed to win the day against that kind of crap while dragging a bunch of lazy deadweight? You are right that this is not the main problem, but its damn sure becoming a bigger part of it by the day.

Everyone needs to be on board in a big fight like this one, or we're fucked.

[RageBeoulve]

It's too easy to fall into negative patterns anymore. The convenient and cheap food is the processed crap that even bugs won't touch. It might be better if the price of gas in the USA skyrocketed, because then people might actually have to walk places and break out the bikes. But a lot of city layouts here don't encourage walking. Hiking across the huge bare planes of concrete in a suburban commercial area, between box stores big enough to hold a small town, in the heat of a southern summer, is... well you would lose weight fast from sheer dehydration and probably collapse of heat exhaustion.

But it shouldn't get to that point, that a person is too grossly obese to leave their home, let alone walk a hundred feet, let alone actually walk from home to a store. That's what I mean about the negative patterns.

a symptom of being fat but nothing to do with welfare.  Except low income families don't have access to much quality, healthy foods.

Thats just an excuse, man. Can't you see that?

[McGiver]

This is true, but giving up and getting lazy makes it worse. How are we supposed to win the day against that kind of crap while dragging a bunch of lazy deadweight? You are right that this is not the main problem, but its damn sure becoming a bigger part of it by the day.

Everyone needs to be on board in a big fight like this one, or we're fucked.

corporate welfare is a vicious cycle.  A race to the bottom.

[RageBeoulve]

This is true, but giving up and getting lazy makes it worse. How are we supposed to win the day against that kind of crap while dragging a bunch of lazy deadweight? You are right that this is not the main problem, but its damn sure becoming a bigger part of it by the day.

Everyone needs to be on board in a big fight like this one, or we're fucked.

corporate welfare is a vicious cycle.  A race to the bottom.

That is the case, since its being ALLOWED to happen. Some personal responsibility is due here, man. People have been taking the easy out for generations.

[McGiver]

This is true, but giving up and getting lazy makes it worse. How are we supposed to win the day against that kind of crap while dragging a bunch of lazy deadweight? You are right that this is not the main problem, but its damn sure becoming a bigger part of it by the day.

Everyone needs to be on board in a big fight like this one, or we're fucked.

corporate welfare is a vicious cycle.  A race to the bottom.

That is the case, since its being ALLOWED to happen. Some personal responsibility is due here, man. People have been taking the easy out for generations.

no. People are easily led. Like your stereotypes of welfare people.  We are divided. And corporations are making a killing.  You posting pictures of fat women is the easy way out.  Finding common ground and uniting for the fight of our lives is the hard work.

[RageBeoulve]

This is true, but giving up and getting lazy makes it worse. How are we supposed to win the day against that kind of crap while dragging a bunch of lazy deadweight? You are right that this is not the main problem, but its damn sure becoming a bigger part of it by the day.

Everyone needs to be on board in a big fight like this one, or we're fucked.

corporate welfare is a vicious cycle.  A race to the bottom.

That is the case, since its being ALLOWED to happen. Some personal responsibility is due here, man. People have been taking the easy out for generations.

no. People are easily led. Like your stereotypes of welfare people.  We are divided. And corporations are making a killing.  You posting pictures of fat women is the easy way out.  Finding common ground and uniting for the fight of our lives is the hard work.

I don't get you dude. Imagine we're just two of a bunch of jews tied to a block, and we're being whipped into pulling it by an egyptian overseer. There are 34 people. 7 of them are not pulling their weight. One is missing a leg. Okay we'll pull harder for him, but what about the other six. Oh they just don't want to pull. Wtf. Meanwhile, one dude managed to get his knots loose, and smuggled a dagger, secretly we begin passing it down the line, and cutting our bonds. Revolution is NIGH! Oh shit wait, six guys are just lazy fatasses and don't want to fight. All of us wind up being killed trying to get away, even the guy without a leg cause he fought! The lazies are put in the next line because they meekly surrendered. An example of the common ground YOU seem to be talking about.

Yeah. Common ground. I want that too, buddy. Cause the slaves might have made it if they weren't so drained from dragging around a cool ton of fatass. And they might have had even more of a chance if those lazy fucks would have helped fight!

[Pyraxis]

Finding common ground and uniting for the fight of our lives is the hard work.

 

One of the huge ways in which corporations get away with what they do is by simply not giving a shit, and letting the people at the bottom turn against each other in the scrabble for the few resources that trickle down that far. They don't have to give a shit until somebody forces them.

[Pyraxis]

I don't get you dude. Imagine we're just two of a bunch of jews tied to a block, and we're being whipped into pulling it by an egyptian overseer. There are 34 people. 7 of them are not pulling their weight. One is missing a leg. Okay we'll pull harder for him, but what about the other six. Oh they just don't want to pull. Wtf. Meanwhile, one dude managed to get his knots loose, and smuggled a dagger, secretly we begin passing it down the line, and cutting our bonds. Revolution is NIGH! Oh shit wait, six guys are just lazy fatasses and don't want to fight. All of us wind up being killed trying to get away, even the guy without a leg cause he fought! The lazies are put in the next line because they meekly surrendered. An example of the common ground YOU seem to be talking about.

And the classic example of the Jews who didn't overpower the concentration camp guards even though they vastly outnumbered them.

I see it like this. It works great to talk about lazy fatasses while you're trying to stir people up. Work up some good outrage from the other folk who see it and understand. But when you're face to face with one of the lazy fatasses, you gotta tone it down. Otherwise they'll reject your message out of hand and see you as one of the oppressors. But because they see you as one of the oppressors, they'll react like a slave to an oppressor, ie passively disobeying you with laziness and stubbornness, while keeping their head down and their mouth shut just enough to keep themselves out of serious trouble.

[RageBeoulve]

I don't get you dude. Imagine we're just two of a bunch of jews tied to a block, and we're being whipped into pulling it by an egyptian overseer. There are 34 people. 7 of them are not pulling their weight. One is missing a leg. Okay we'll pull harder for him, but what about the other six. Oh they just don't want to pull. Wtf. Meanwhile, one dude managed to get his knots loose, and smuggled a dagger, secretly we begin passing it down the line, and cutting our bonds. Revolution is NIGH! Oh shit wait, six guys are just lazy fatasses and don't want to fight. All of us wind up being killed trying to get away, even the guy without a leg cause he fought! The lazies are put in the next line because they meekly surrendered. An example of the common ground YOU seem to be talking about.

And the classic example of the Jews who didn't overpower the concentration camp guards even though they vastly outnumbered them.

I see it like this. It works great to talk about lazy fatasses while you're trying to stir people up. Work up some good outrage from the other folk who see it and understand. But when you're face to face with one of the lazy fatasses, you gotta tone it down. Otherwise they'll reject your message out of hand and see you as one of the oppressors. But because they see you as one of the oppressors, they'll react like a slave to an oppressor, ie passively disobeying you with laziness and stubbornness, while keeping their head down and their mouth shut just enough to keep themselves out of serious trouble.

I see what you're saying, but I am incapable of "gently coaxing" these speshul snowflakes out of their comfort zones. They just piss me off, and i'll kick them in the face for making things harder on the rest of us for this long. They SHOULD feel guilty dammit! They're criminals!

I can see that you understand that I am NOT an opressor, but suffering just as much as the rest. And very angry at the people who are supposed to be my peers making the load heavier because they feel themselves "priveliged" or some fucking thing I dunno. Why do people do that? Its nonsense!

[Pyraxis]

Oh now the "privileged" bullcrap, that I hate too, it's just more of the thing of people turning against each other 'cause it's too hard to fight the ones that really need fighting.

It could be looked at as sparring practice, the endless arguments over who's more oppressed, but at some point people have got to step out of the kiddie sandbox and go challenge something more substantial.

[McGiver]

Rage, I am arguing against your stereotype of welfare people.  It's divisive and serves no purpose.  I am simply trying to show you that the first step is corporate welfare, whether it be laws that allow them to quash the competition or steal your money.  Or outright tax dollars paid to campaign donors or to bail out failure.

The first step isn't people at the bottom of the ladder.
Take away corporate entitlement. Give people better paying jobs, with healthcare and then we can start pointing fingers at those not willing to contribute.
You just want to fry the guppies.  I say there are bigger fish to fry if you want real solutions.

[TheoK]

The ones who should really "get of their asses" are the middle class morons of the kind that voted for the current Swedish government. They don't understand anything. It's directly or indirectly their fault that things like big corporations enslaving people in the Third World and polluting the environment, the infringements on the US constitution and the nightmarish bureaucracy of the EU exist.

[El]

Its not like that anymore. I'm serious. After just a little bit of research you will see that this bullshit has become a career for many. Did you know that disability spending alone is up over two hundred billion dollars since 2010?

I wonder why people are getting fatter.  Could I be lack of access to nutritious food? Sedentary life style?  Lack of education?

Why since 2010?  Economy?  Lack of opportunity.  Supply and demand?

What are you taaaaaaaalking about, McJ?  Eeeeeeeverybody in 'Merica has access to affordable AND nutritious food, has lots of opportunity and ability to exercise, and get a wooonnddderrffullll education!  Those fat bastards on disability are fat because they LIIIKKEEEEE being fat!  In fact, I think they gain weight ENTIRELY to be offensive!

 

Its not hard to get off the couch and go for simple walks now and again. Goddamn. Have you seen how lazy most people are?

And indeed you have a point. It is hard to get out from under the man, but check this out.

has access to affordable AND nutritious food

The food might be half poison these days, but there is WAY too much of it. People are fucking hogs elle. Don't deny it.

has lots of opportunity and ability to exercise

Yeah actually. They do. There are free gyms EVERYWHERE, and you don't even need to go to the gym. Just a little walk a day will maintain a reasonable shape. People don't even want to move, elle. America has become a country filled with Hutts. Filthy disgusting selfish human waste everywhere you look, in the physical shape of Jabba the Hutt.

Those fat bastards on disability are fat because they LIIIKKEEEEE being fat

There may be a small fraction of the obese in America with genuine medical problems. Most of them don't. This isn't to say those lazy fucks LIKE being fat either, they just don't really care. The fact that they are fat is like a dull nagging in the back of their head as the days blurr together. Accept it, Elle. Why defend this bullshit?

All the vast majority of these fatasses would have to do to get back in reasonable shape is do move their disgusting bulk around more often than it takes to eat or shit. That's ALL.

OK, rage.  To start, I'll just quote my previous reply on this issue.

The specific issue I'll additionally address is that the notion that gyms are universally accessible and affordable is bullshit.  People also don't always have safe places to go out walking- or FEEL safe.  Depending on where you live, there may be months at a time where going out walking isn't really a reasonable expectation because of extremity of cold and/or snow accumulation making sidewalks inaccessible.

re:  Who does and does not have medical problems:  How do you know the percentage of people with "legitimate" medical problems, Rage?  Can you quote me statistics on this?  Can you cite credible sources?  You have the good luck to, apparently, be reasonably healthy, young, and free of disabling pain.  That doesn't mean everyone else is the same way.

Yes, there's lots of food available.  Good-quality food, no.  It's harder to access and it's more expensive and takes more effort.  If you assume limited access to good-quality food, then you get into the issues that come with only having access to poor-quality food.  It's not simply an issue of eating less of it.  There's also the havoc shitty food (AS WELL as inadequate nutrition- and these can be tandem problems) can wreak on your body, and on your head.

Also, not the most scientific thing ever, but, 'food' for thought:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me

I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.

As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability.  It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder.  It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch.  Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.

It's also often a result of the side effects of medication that one is on.  Think how freaking medicated America is.  It can also be the result of other medical issues.  Or something that happens as the result of injury and/or chronic pain- which then becomes an unfortunate trap with things like back pain and joint pain.

There's other factors, obviously:  More sedentary lives, less free time, etc.  Also the less money you have, the harder it is to eat healthy, and the harder it is to get access to things like gyms or good exercise equipment.  For some people who've been victimized, it makes them feel *safer* to be heavier.  And for some people, food is about the only pleasure or comfort they have in their lives.

But hey, why think about the issues.  It's much easier to just ay "Those fat fucks should eat less and move around more."  Same as "The fucking hoboes should all go get fucking jobs."   

[El]

Yeah, why are you picking on rage?

Back up your words, Elle, do you have any better arguments than insults? 

To answer both of your questions:  Part of the issue is I have a decided lack of faith in my ability to get through Rage's particular brand of thickheadedness.  He seems to me to be coming from a very, very aggressive perspective of "This is not hard for me, therefore it can't possible be hard for you."  Aspie trait, maybe, but I still feel that he is saying really ignorant and kinda douchey things.  I think his opinions make him seem like an ignorant, adolescent-minded, overly-cocky kid who doesn't know what he's talking about, but also doesn't properly understand that he doesn't know what he's talking about.  Hence why I asked if he was trolling.  It was a genuine question.

And, might I had, this kind of ignorance- not knowing that you don't know what you're talking about, or doing- IS, in my opinion, VERY much a big part of what's wrong with the US and with the world today.  Strongly-held but poorly-informed opinions (like "there are free gyms everywhere") are relatively harmless on an internet forum.  Not so much when held by policymakers and politicians, or even when held by people who, at various levels, enforce those policies.  (I think I said this someplace on here before, but hell if I remember when or where.)

[Pyraxis]

I don't get why you keep talking about gyms as if a gym is the only place to get exercise. Snow doesn't prevent a person from walking down the sidewalk unless there is freezing rain or a severe windchill.

I don't get the attitude that a person must FEEL safe before changing anything. There are degrees of safety, and fear can be a signal that there is danger in the environment but it can also be an internal reaction to breaking inertia and have nothing to do with the environment.

I don't think you can change Rage's personality and it's futile to try. If he is aggressive, simplistic and cocky, that makes him a good motivator for some types of people, a good shit-stirrer and discussion starter. If that makes for a bad policy-maker... I would question what systems are placing aggressive, simplistic and cocky people in positions where they're making binding decisions about things they don't know much about.