Socialism questions and hypothesis.

[Scrapheap]

I think that wide scale European socialism simply will not work in the US. We have a different history and institutions. Most every Gov program here is ripe with waste, abuse and institutional corruption. I'm sure these problems exist in Europe as well, but not to the same extent.

If you give out a large sum of gov. money for a social welfare program, the first thing that happens is influence peddling. The people placed in charge of that money have significant power now and use the money to increase their influence instead of doing their job. In a kingdom, this tendency can be controlled much easier than in a democracy, where bureaucrats are almost untouchable.

My hypothesis is that since many European governments are former kingdoms that have democratized, that a different culture existed within bureaucracies. Because kings would lay the smack down on a minister that wasn't doing their job, a culture of accountability emerged that never made it to the US.

OK, this idea occurred to me a 4:00 am when I couldn't sleep, so haw far off the mark am I??

[Pyraxis]

Could it also have to do with people having more cultural respect for a king than for a politician, so ministers of royalty have a better work ethic?

[Scrapheap]

Could it also have to do with people having more cultural respect for a king than for a politician, so ministers of royalty have a better work ethic?

That's part of what I was getting at. Although I wouldn't say work ethic, I'd say sense of duty.

American bureaucrats are selfish and create fiefdoms out of their agencies.

I'm under the impression that doesn't happen as much in Europe.

[Scrapheap]

Come on Zegh, you don't have anything to add to this discussion?? 

[McGiver]

It will take time.  That us why we teach children to share and everybody ties in sports.  All about having fun together more than competition.....anti capitalism.

[Scrapheap]

[Peter]

Not all European countries are equal.  Italy and Greece are rife with corruption, while in the UK, we recently crucified our politicians for fiddling mere tens of thousands of pounds out of their parliamentary expenses accounts, with 6 of them serving prison sentences for it.  In places like Italy and Greece, corruption is just a way of life that everyone accepts, but here in the UK, you'd better keep quiet about it or we'll come after you with pitchforks.  We also probably have less money sloshing around the system than the US, and possibly better accounting since it's not spread out over so many different jurisdictions, so people have less incentive to fiddle the system, more chance of getting caught and more chance of getting pitchforked when they get caught.

[TheoK]

Western and northern Europe are not as corrupt as eastern and southern. Most countries east and south of Germany and Austria are corrupt, probably as much or more than the US.

[Scrapheap]

Not all European countries are equal.  Italy and Greece are rife with corruption, while in the UK, we recently crucified our politicians for fiddling mere tens of thousands of pounds out of their parliamentary expenses accounts, with 6 of them serving prison sentences for it.  In places like Italy and Greece, corruption is just a way of life that everyone accepts, but here in the UK, you'd better keep quiet about it or we'll come after you with pitchforks.  We also probably have less money sloshing around the system than the US, and possibly better accounting since it's not spread out over so many different jurisdictions, so people have less incentive to fiddle the system, more chance of getting caught and more chance of getting pitchforked when they get caught.

Western and northern Europe are not as corrupt as eastern and southern. Most countries east and south of Germany and Austria are corrupt, probably as much or more than the US.

Thanks for the input guys.

Do you have any idea why countries like Greece, Italy, Russia and parts of the former Eastern Bloc are more corrupt? Is there a different reason for each country?

[TheoK]

Hard to say. Russia was first an Empire and then a "communist" dictatorship. They have no tradition of control of the authorities so that they don't abuse their power. Italy and Greece are old culturally but young as modern states. Something similar there.

[Pyraxis]

We also probably have less money sloshing around the system than the US, and possibly better accounting since it's not spread out over so many different jurisdictions, so people have less incentive to fiddle the system, more chance of getting caught and more chance of getting pitchforked when they get caught.

In the US, there's an interesting dynamic between state and federal governments that I don't think exists in the UK in the same way. States are seen as more of independent entities with more power to enact their own laws, for example over gay marriage rights, self-defense, or healthcare spending. So there are significant institutions that change as soon as you cross state lines, and also conflict between state and federal governments over who has to pay for what.

[McGiver]

Do you have any idea why countries like Greece, Italy, Russia and parts of the former Eastern Bloc are more corrupt? Is there a different reason for each country?

I doubt they are.  They are much more open about their corruption and that limits it.  I will guarantee that the UK is more corrupt.  And better at hiding it.

We here in the US look at Mexico as being corrupt. Yet America is by far more corrupt. 
We are easily convinced that others are the bad guys.

[Scrapheap]

Hard to say. Russia was first an Empire and then a "communist" dictatorship. They have no tradition of control of the authorities so that they don't abuse their power. Italy and Greece are old culturally but young as modern states. Something similar there.

So the culture that existed within government bureaucracies was broken then.

I still think that that's the key to neutralize corruption.

There has to be a culture that discourages it.

[McGiver]

The key to neutralizing corruption is admitting its there.  Then control it.  Denying its existence allows for it to run rampant.

[Scrapheap]

In the US, there's an interesting dynamic between state and federal governments that I don't think exists in the UK in the same way. States are seen as more of independent entities with more power to enact their own laws, for example over gay marriage rights, self-defense, or healthcare spending. So there are significant institutions that change as soon as you cross state lines, and also conflict between state and federal governments over who has to pay for what.

This is true, but how does it influence the likelyhood of a bureaucracy to become corrupted?