Marx fabricated screen shots to get Alfonso banned.

[Al Swearegen]

I have substantively shown every accusation you have levelled at me as incorrect. Then finally at base tracts when I finally get to the heart of the matter and ask you to show where I have said that I called Alfonso a dog fucker, you first time around admit that I didn't whilst still accusing me and then quote crop dishonestly.

Now Jack. How ought I feel about this and your want to throw insubstantial accusations at me?

[Jack]

I don't know how you should feel, or even how I feel. I only know I have been honest about what I think. Like you, I find it very hard to truly understand any other point of view than my own. I don't understand why you've said the things you've said anymore than you will understand me, but I see this as an ability we both struggle. I can only decide if I will accept your point of view, and I do, because I respect you and your opinion regardless of how much I disagree or don't understand. I'm truly bothered that this is now about feelings, and you feel I've wronged you somehow. This was never my intention.

[Jack]

My intentions are moot. I'm sorry we can't fix this, sir.

[Al Swearegen]

I don't know how you should feel, or even how I feel. I only know I have been honest about what I think. Like you, I find it very hard to truly understand any other point of view than my own. I don't understand why you've said the things you've said anymore than you will understand me, but I see this as an ability we both struggle. I can only decide if I will accept your point of view, and I do, because I respect you and your opinion regardless of how much I disagree or don't understand. I'm truly bothered that this is now about feelings, and you feel I've wronged you somehow. This was never my intention.

I do not find it hard to understand other's points of view. I find it incredibly hard to see where you are coming from.
This is not 'now about feelings. " Not changing the goalposts. Look back through the thread and you will see me saying over and over that I do not know why you would come at me like this and that the accusations and whatever are quantifiable.

You accuse me of breaking the rules - Easy fix. Did I break the rules? If not, this kind of falls over. I hadn't. It fell over.

You accuse me of using legal semantic to try to distract from rule breaking activities - easy fixed. Rules are based on Laws and researching appropriate laws points to my not having "crossed the line" ..... or even fucking close

You accuse me of Not admitting knowing I had stepped over the line and not owning my actions - Disapproved this accusation.

You accuse me of bringing up unacceptable I2 discussion - Proved this incorrect

You accuse me of calling Alfonso a dog fucker - had not said this and when pushed, the BEST you could do is quote crop a sentence to say what you wanted to sat. I then showed a similar example of me saying the opposite of something by quote cropping. About as disingenuous and dishonest a tactic and changing quotes and posting "Fixed"

You accused me of trying to talk my way out of "it" - I dunno what "it" was, but I was never in "it". If I say that I never said "x" and you have accused me of "x' and you can't find where i said "x" then really me talking about having never said "x" is not me talking myself out of responsibility....is it?

BUT what is not quantifiable nor objective is why you would go accusing me of all of this in the last couple of days?

Also I have to think "OK I have been accused of shit I have not done, and with motive and intent I have not had, and with values I do not hold. In disproving them, have had more and more thrown at me. All by the same person. When the final key issue was discovered, I have asked for proof and not only was this not there but the evidence crop quoted and a number of demands not to question its transparent dishonesty and shake hands and walk away.

Is this above sounding like a person I should feel well disposed to, or not?
Do you think the actions of that person look reasonable or not?
Do you think I should say "Oh don't worry I love being accused of shit I did not do by people I like?"

Yeah. I am not thinking that sounds logical, reasonable or wise? In fact I may well be on my guard around that person for when they out of the blue decide to start throwing accusations my way, for no good reason.

Jack. I think the only thing i can say is whilst your argument was tenacious, and passionate, i no more am closer to seeing your position as having any redeemable qualities and no closer to appreciating why you would try this shit on.
I am not cross. Not even frustrated now. Very disappointed with you. That is about all. Can't say I trust you or your motives now. None of what you say seems to have made any sense or seems to have had good intent. It may, I simply don't know. Therefore I do not trust you. You are in my mind at any point a possible hair width away from another accusation on something I did not say, think, feel or whatever and it could launch without notice at any moment for any reason.

Will not bother needling or sparring with you. Plenty of the board for both of us. I will keep a wary eye on you expecting the left field accusation, but will not dog you. Of course I will contest anything you throw at me. But no need for me to get in your face otherwise.

Damn shame this whole business. Can't imagine it was worth it.

[Jack]

I understand you see it that I came at you, but the fact is, I had no idea you were involved, and that involvement doesn't change what I think about what you said. I wish it did. That post made me disappointed in you too; it made no sense or had good intent, and your reaction in this discussion has made me leery of you as well. I worry what you might one day read about me, and pass along to others with clean hands of only the messenger, now that I think you don't like me so much. It's acceptable that you don't trust me. I don't trust either and wouldn't expect you to, but that has nothing to do with this discussion or you in particular. I appreciate that you say you won't dog me around the board. That's very respectful, and all I can really ask. Damn shame indeed.

[Al Swearegen]

I understand you see it that I came at you, but the fact is, I had no idea you were involved, and that involvement doesn't change what I think about what you said. I wish it did. That post made me disappointed in you too; it made no sense or had good intent, and your reaction in this discussion has made me leery of you as well. I worry what you might one day read about me, and pass along to others with clean hands of only the messenger, now that I think you don't like me so much. It's acceptable that you don't trust me. I don't trust either and wouldn't expect you to, but that has nothing to do with this discussion or you in particular. I appreciate that you say you won't dog me around the board. That's very respectful, and all I can really ask. Damn shame indeed.

Or even what you saw I did not say?
I think the day you become a homophobic man, who threatens 15 year old girls, and obsesses about finding a particular gay man and raping him.....then sure, when that day comes, be leery as hell about me possible finding bad things written on here about you. When that day comes, whatever said here would be the least of the concern with respect to disrepute, and you would not likely be too leery at that stage. Is this what you are trying to portray or is it more a general concern? Not following this "passing on" and "cleaned hand messenger" thing? Sounds a little like another accusation but trying to appreciate what it is and is not saying first.

[BUBBASAURUS_RAEP]

[odeon]

Fuck off, Cartman. Grown-ups are having a discussion.

[El-Presidente]

Fuck off, Cartman. Grown-ups are having a discussion.

I can picture cartman with his little collection of images. He must have a folder called 'teh funiest imagez evar 4 lolz' or something of a similarly moronic ilk.

[Jack]

This thread is making me think quite a bit about something similar I did not so long ago. I said something I knew was bad/wrong/untrue about someone and it was out of line, and worse than this because it was behind their back. What I said was phrased in such a way that allowed the flexibility for me to say *I* didn't say that. When my comment was challenged, that was my reflexive response; that's exactly what I said...I didn't say it, and all the semantic reasons why. That wasn't true. I did say it, no matter how it was worded. I much appreciate the person who I said it to, because they refused to allow me to deny it. I admitted my wrongdoing to the person I said it, and also admitted it to the person I said it about, even though they might have never otherwise known. I'm feeling really good about this discussion today. I'm thankful for this exercise, though regretful for stepping on toes.

[El-Presidente]

This thread is making me think quite a bit about something similar I did not so long ago. I said something I knew was bad/wrong/untrue about someone and it was out of line, and worse than this because it was behind their back. What I said was phrased in such a way that allowed the flexibility for me to say *I* didn't say that. When my comment was challenged, that was my reflexive response; that's exactly what I said...I didn't say it, and all the semantic reasons why. That wasn't true. I did say it, no matter how it was worded. I much appreciate the person who I said it to, because they refused to allow me to deny it. I admitted my wrongdoing to the person I said it, and also admitted it to the person I said it about, even though they might have never otherwise known. I'm feeling really good about this discussion today. I'm thankful for this exercise, though regretful for stepping on toes.

Both you and Al are taking this far too seriously. No offence intended fellas.

[Jack]

Indeed.

[Scrapheap]

Well, we know that Sir Les has fucked a cow, sow how could bestiality be a bannable offence??

[Al Swearegen]

This thread is making me think quite a bit about something similar I did not so long ago. I said something I knew was bad/wrong/untrue about someone and it was out of line, and worse than this because it was behind their back. What I said was phrased in such a way that allowed the flexibility for me to say *I* didn't say that. When my comment was challenged, that was my reflexive response; that's exactly what I said...I didn't say it, and all the semantic reasons why. That wasn't true. I did say it, no matter how it was worded. I much appreciate the person who I said it to, because they refused to allow me to deny it. I admitted my wrongdoing to the person I said it, and also admitted it to the person I said it about, even though they might have never otherwise known. I'm feeling really good about this discussion today. I'm thankful for this exercise, though regretful for stepping on toes.

Both you and Al are taking this far too seriously. No offence intended fellas.

I am a bit of a dog with a bone over these things. It is the aspie in me.

This thread is making me think quite a bit about something similar I did not so long ago. I said something I knew was bad/wrong/untrue about someone and it was out of line, and worse than this because it was behind their back. What I said was phrased in such a way that allowed the flexibility for me to say *I* didn't say that. When my comment was challenged, that was my reflexive response; that's exactly what I said...I didn't say it, and all the semantic reasons why. That wasn't true. I did say it, no matter how it was worded. I much appreciate the person who I said it to, because they refused to allow me to deny it. I admitted my wrongdoing to the person I said it, and also admitted it to the person I said it about, even though they might have never otherwise known. I'm feeling really good about this discussion today. I'm thankful for this exercise, though regretful for stepping on toes.

I don't think you are stepping on toes nor that this recent RL occurrence really resembles what happened here. In fact probably the opposite, if anything.

Here you accused someone of a heap of shit they did not do, and when asked to back it up, you had very little to back yourself with. Bit by bit it was shown that there was nothing substantial in your accusations. I dunno how that in any way mirrors your RL example. You seem to be trying to draw an inference that I really don't think is there. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I am hardly disposed to nod my head and send affirmations.

Would like to actually have you clarify what looked like an accusation in this.

I understand you see it that I came at you, but the fact is, I had no idea you were involved, and that involvement doesn't change what I think about what you said. I wish it did. That post made me disappointed in you too; it made no sense or had good intent, and your reaction in this discussion has made me leery of you as well. I worry what you might one day read about me, and pass along to others with clean hands of only the messenger, now that I think you don't like me so much. It's acceptable that you don't trust me. I don't trust either and wouldn't expect you to, but that has nothing to do with this discussion or you in particular. I appreciate that you say you won't dog me around the board. That's very respectful, and all I can really ask. Damn shame indeed.

Or even what you saw I did not say?
I think the day you become a homophobic man, who threatens 15 year old girls, and obsesses about finding a particular gay man and raping him.....then sure, when that day comes, be leery as hell about me possible finding bad things written on here about you. When that day comes, whatever said here would be the least of the concern with respect to disrepute, and you would not likely be too leery at that stage. Is this what you are trying to portray or is it more a general concern? Not following this "passing on" and "cleaned hand messenger" thing? Sounds a little like another accusation but trying to appreciate what it is and is not saying first.

[Al Swearegen]

Well, we know that Sir Les has fucked a cow, sow how could bestiality be a bannable offence??

Yes, yes then I divorced her. Old news.