Land dispute: US vs Onondaga for New York state

[sg1008]

#3 1950's? Lets see... during that time...what was the US doing, oh yeah, kidnapping children forcing them into boarding schools where they were abused, molested, raped, and punished for speaking the language they knew. and what is that exactly?

citations for this comment?

Here is a nice resource:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16516865

[Parts]

#1 to generalize from one nation to another is a racist notion that all Indians are the same no matter where they from, what language they speak, who they are.

#2 Also the racist politicians arguments that Indians are always looking for money, as if genocide, displacement, oppression, and continual "screwing-the-over" means nothing at all.

#1 not just  all Indians all people are generally the same with few exceptions

#2 Generally anyone taking the government to court is looking for money.  As for genocide, displacement, ect how long ago was that?   Perhaps I should take Great Britain to court for their actions in the potato famine to demand reparations.

To the ignorant comment I feel it applies to you in your naive insistence that this is not about money but about some greater glory for their nation

[sg1008]

#1 to generalize from one nation to another is a racist notion that all Indians are the same no matter where they from, what language they speak, who they are.

#2 Also the racist politicians arguments that Indians are always looking for money, as if genocide, displacement, oppression, and continual "screwing-the-over" means nothing at all.

#1 not just  all Indians all people are generally the same with few exceptions

#2 Generally anyone taking the government to court is looking for money.  As for genocide, displacement, ect how long ago was that?   Perhaps I should take Great Britain to court for their actions in the potato famine to demand reparations.

To the ignorant comment I feel it applies to you in your naive insistence that this is not about money but about some greater glory for their nation

I never said that (bolded). Would you be interested to learn something about it? Or are you 'set in your ways' about the world?

[sg1008]

#3 1950's? Lets see... during that time...what was the US doing, oh yeah, kidnapping children forcing them into boarding schools where they were abused, molested, raped, and punished for speaking the language they knew. and what is that exactly?

citations for this comment?

Here is a nice resource:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16516865

Here's another:
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/5127:new-documentary-tracks-cultural-genocide-of-american-indians

[Parts]

#1 to generalize from one nation to another is a racist notion that all Indians are the same no matter where they from, what language they speak, who they are.

#2 Also the racist politicians arguments that Indians are always looking for money, as if genocide, displacement, oppression, and continual "screwing-the-over" means nothing at all.

#1 not just  all Indians all people are generally the same with few exceptions

#2 Generally anyone taking the government to court is looking for money.  As for genocide, displacement, ect how long ago was that?   Perhaps I should take Great Britain to court for their actions in the potato famine to demand reparations.

To the ignorant comment I feel it applies to you in your naive insistence that this is not about money but about some greater glory for their nation

I never said that (bolded). Would you be interested to learn something about it? Or are you 'set in your ways' about the world?

Well what is it about then.  As far as my ways they are set pretty firmly as  skeptic and realist.  Show me something current dealing directly with the people involved not something from history 

[sg1008]

#1 to generalize from one nation to another is a racist notion that all Indians are the same no matter where they from, what language they speak, who they are.

#2 Also the racist politicians arguments that Indians are always looking for money, as if genocide, displacement, oppression, and continual "screwing-the-over" means nothing at all.

#1 not just  all Indians all people are generally the same with few exceptions

#2 Generally anyone taking the government to court is looking for money.  As for genocide, displacement, ect how long ago was that?   Perhaps I should take Great Britain to court for their actions in the potato famine to demand reparations.

To the ignorant comment I feel it applies to you in your naive insistence that this is not about money but about some greater glory for their nation

I never said that (bolded). Would you be interested to learn something about it? Or are you 'set in your ways' about the world?

Well what is it about then.  As far as my ways they are set pretty firmly as  skeptic and realist.  Show me something current dealing directly with the people involved not something from history

Nothing wrong with being a skeptic or a realist...but just remember sometimes removing context, or applying your own context, can slant reality. Nothing wrong with that either, it's natural to prefer, or to perceive via some set of contexts (although it would appear aspies are more flexible in our contextual POVs...but we're not immune).

To start,
From what angle do you presume to know least:
Facts about this particular case-
Cultural Psychology behind these types of cases-
Indigenous Human rights-
or
Political tools/habits of colonial systems ?

You said you don't want to know history, does this mean you are aware of the history?
If you are, which history? Did you learn it from school, from TV, or from the people who experienced it? Which books are you familiar with?

It's hard to know where to begin without going in circles. I could write a book for you, but I don't want to, so I have to know where are most / least confident and start there.

[P7PSP]

'Your people wronged my people a couple hundred years ago'    Blah blah blah  it gets old.  Go back far enough everyones been fucked by someone and everyone has fucked someone else

Boy you really don't know US law or history do you?

There are certain disputes that exist today which have been ongoing, and the Supremes court has ruled in favour of Indians for land disputes. They have the legal right to dispute those lands, and US has the obligation to meet the challenge.

Also, they weren't wronged 100 years ago, it is an ongoing and current offense. But of course, a statement like that shows you probably don't care to know your history. Taking a lot of self-restraint to not just start cursing...

Curse all you want I still will not care and they will not get what they want, sure they may get something and this is their angle to get as much as possible. 

see what I mean skyblue1? Parts doesn't care, just makes ignorant statements with no knowledge of the facts, the history, the law, or the purpose. Makes the same presumptions about people's motives that racists make.

And I didn't curse. For the record. But I am upset, because that racist BS is what lets a genocide to finish itself off. Should I expect morality from this place? Or are ethics out the window?

Is this a place for nazi's or something?

I have a Bund meeting tonight.

[Parts]

I don't want a book and I am not a big fan of cultural guilt so spare me.  I will concede indigenous peoples the world over have been treated like crap but how far back do you go with the reparations . So in this case is there anyone alive now who had their land stolen or is this a case of something that happened generations ago?  The date I last saw referred to was 1822 anything a little more current?

[Parts]

'Your people wronged my people a couple hundred years ago'    Blah blah blah  it gets old.  Go back far enough everyones been fucked by someone and everyone has fucked someone else

Boy you really don't know US law or history do you?

There are certain disputes that exist today which have been ongoing, and the Supremes court has ruled in favour of Indians for land disputes. They have the legal right to dispute those lands, and US has the obligation to meet the challenge.

Also, they weren't wronged 100 years ago, it is an ongoing and current offense. But of course, a statement like that shows you probably don't care to know your history. Taking a lot of self-restraint to not just start cursing...

Curse all you want I still will not care and they will not get what they want, sure they may get something and this is their angle to get as much as possible. 

see what I mean skyblue1? Parts doesn't care, just makes ignorant statements with no knowledge of the facts, the history, the law, or the purpose. Makes the same presumptions about people's motives that racists make.

And I didn't curse. For the record. But I am upset, because that racist BS is what lets a genocide to finish itself off. Should I expect morality from this place? Or are ethics out the window?

Is this a place for nazi's or something?

I have a Bund meeting tonight.

I'll be late save me some Black Forest cake and schnaps

[sg1008]

I don't want a book and I am not a big fan of cultural guilt so spare me.  I will concede indigenous peoples the world over have been treated like crap but how far back do you go with the reparations . So in this case is there anyone alive now who had their land stolen or is this a case of something that happened generations ago?  The date I last saw referred to was 1822 anything a little more current?

The short answer is this:
Water and environment are being polluted by negligence, or being sold to energy extraction companies which in turn pollute....killing off animals, but also effecting people. Without good land, not only would quality of life deteriorate for Americans, Onondaga would loose the fundamental aspect of their whole culture. They lived as a part of an eco system for thousands of years...their identity is tied to it in ways us colonized folks aren't inherently familiar with. Yes they WERE wronged, but they are also being wronged. How can they live freely and use lands that are wasted? That's a direct treaty breach. A current treaty breach. So they see that they are being wronged and the land is threatened, therefore, they are enforcing their treaty rights to make sure they have a say in the land and water policies/activities of the area.

A quick google search and you can find more information about this. Unless, would you like me to find sources for you?

What is particularly unique about this case is, it's similar to what canadian treaties are - that natives can either use their land, or live alongside canadians. Therefore, they can enforce that if the land is being mismanaged. US was much more intelligent when it came to genocide, because not only were treaties ignored and people moved to reserves, which were/are concentration camps, they also imposed individual land ownership (Dawes Act) on many, and in this way divided up the land and took it. The Lakota sued the gov't for the land stolen from them and won, but the Supremes court awarded them a settlement which they refused to take saying the Black Hills are not for sale. They are practically a third world country, but the Black Hills are sacred to them, and to their identity as Lakota. They can't and won't take money for it. But US hasn't made a move to give it back, so they currently are holding it illegally, and this is a current case (I think the ruling was in the 80s).

Anyways, the Onondaga however have a unique enforceable treaty history which ought to give them a say on what goes on with the land. They don't want a casino, they want to be able to protect it. It's a cause New Yorkans can latch onto, which many of them do.

[sg1008]

Also as a realist...I hope you don't believe everyone is always out for money. Many are, and most of the loud, successful, or powerful ones are. Many people won't be your friend if you're poor.

But, there are people who care about things other than money. Indigenous people, there will be greedy ones among them (even greedy tribes), but MANY keep their traditions alive and are quite attached to the land, sky, and their culture. And they will do anything to protect it because in most traditions they are raised to believe they are protectors of the land and animals. Particularly if they are spiritual connected, they take names from the land and animals so thats an intimate connection with the environment. If your clan was the bear clan, you would be concerned if you didn't see any bears around. If your name is dirty chest (rolling in the dirt looking for herbs), you would be concerned if there are plants missing. If your religion valued the presence of eagles, you would be concerned not to see them flying around. Many non-native citizens feel that way too, especially farmers and ranchers and people who grow up fishing or in the country.... those who depend on healthy land. Also, people who feel the ill health effects of pollution tend to be grateful for efforts to protect the air, and water they use.

[Parts]

When you say there land do you mean land they lay claim to or land they have possession of?  As far as pollution goes if any of the companies doing it are in violation of state or federal law they should address that as any other land owner could.  Also as of right now fracking is still banned in NY till 2015 so energy companies may be buying up land but they are sitting on it so there is time for them to lobby to continue the ban.

They lived as a part of an eco system for thousands of years...their identity is tied to it in ways us colonized folks aren't inherently familiar with. 

'colonized folks' Sorry it's 2013 not 1753
How many of them still do or even could?  Romanticizing them is something I have never understood,  they are people just like everyone else and they lived the way they did because they had to.  I respect the knowledge and the ability in anyone who knows how to live off the land as a matter of fact that was an obsession of mine for a long time but it does not make the mystical they way you make it sound.

[sg1008]

When you say there land do you mean land they lay claim to or land they have possession of?  As far as pollution goes if any of the companies doing it are in violation of state or federal law they should address that as any other land owner could.  Also as of right now fracking is still banned in NY till 2015 so energy companies may be buying up land but they are sitting on it so there is time for them to lobby to continue the ban.

They lived as a part of an eco system for thousands of years...their identity is tied to it in ways us colonized folks aren't inherently familiar with. 

'colonized folks' Sorry it's 2013 not 1753
How many of them still do or even could?  Romanticizing them is something I have never understood,  they are people just like everyone else and they lived the way they did because they had to.  I respect the knowledge and the ability in anyone who knows how to live off the land as a matter of fact that was an obsession of mine for a long time but it does not make the mystical they way you make it sound.

I mean the land that the treaty states they have rights to live freely within.

That's how I consider us anyways...colonized.

I'm not romanticizing, I don't mean to make it mystical. It's either my experience, or the experience I learned from listening to others. For example, I guarantee, if you believed in spirits, and knew what your guardian animal spirit was (like an angel), and were told to learn all you could about that spirit, then in your lifelong studies you would notice if they ended up on the endangered list. But that's religion, and unless you're spiritual, it might sound super mystical.

Although I agree that romanticizing is something that is done, among other stereotypes (I am highly skeptical of new age versions of things...gotta be careful what you read about them)... But like you said living in the bush was just a fact. They had to live in some sort of harmony with nature in order to survive, and their imagery and religion was tied to it- either their drums were made from animal hides, or their medicine came from the forest. Either way they were connected. For instance, I believe the Wampanaog word for 'man' actually means 'earth walker'. The language reflects their position to the earth.

In a similar way, the cree word means earth protectors. Again a relationship to the earth, and even a step into protection.

Today, many at least acknowledge the environment if they have an attachment to it.  If someone's gonna practice their traditions which are tied to the environment, they tend to hold that space sacred...they're gonna notice change with more nostalgia. That's just what happens when ppl are raised with that kind of heritage. Family, and history do make a difference in the way ppl tend to experience the world. Thats the difference.

They are just like us, in terms of physiology, etc, but they have a different family, history, and understanding. And if they don't they have access to certain knowledge, which is not so accessible to us. Therefore they are not the same as us, just as one can't say black people are the same as white people and got about removing their entire context from them. I don't believe is total sameness.

For instance, being transgender and Navajo, from a traditional family, is not so confusing or scary to come out with because they have words for that, and a tradition of that, and historical figures like that. It's a different experience than being transgender and white, or being transgender and black.

I could recommend some books if you're interested in indigenous cultures.

At any rate...even if you disagree, I appreciate this conversation now.

[P7PSP]

I guarantee, if you believed in spirits, and knew what your guardian animal spirit was (like an angel), and were told to learn all you could about that spirit, then in your lifelong studies you would notice if they ended up on the endangered list. But that's religion, and unless you're spiritual, it might sound super mystical.

I give such beliefs as much credence as I do Balaam's donkey talking to him in Numbers 22:28 or Maui pulling a huge fish out of the water to use it (the fish) to form the North Island of New Zealand.

And if they don't they have access to certain knowledge, which is not so accessible to us.

That position that someone like a Shaman, a Pope, the Prophet of the LDS church, Jim Jones or Charles Manson, possesses special knowledge has been used since before recorded history to install and maintain a social order that benefits those with such special knowledge, often to the detriment of their followers.

For being non racist you certainly appear to be placing the Onondaga on a decidedly higher plane than the rest of humanity. Of course many religions lay claim to preferred status from their created divine beings. Without such a belief backing them, as well as the publication of Der Judenstaat in 1896, the ancient alien Jews would probably not have founded the modern state of Israel so such a belief can produce results.

[sg1008]

I guarantee, if you believed in spirits, and knew what your guardian animal spirit was (like an angel), and were told to learn all you could about that spirit, then in your lifelong studies you would notice if they ended up on the endangered list. But that's religion, and unless you're spiritual, it might sound super mystical.

I give such beliefs as much credence as I do Balaam's donkey talking to him in Numbers 22:28 or Maui pulling a huge fish out of the water to use it (the fish) to form the North Island of New Zealand.

And if they don't they have access to certain knowledge, which is not so accessible to us.

That position that someone like a Shaman, a Pope, the Prophet of the LDS church, Jim Jones or Charles Manson, possesses special knowledge has been used since before recorded history to install and maintain a social order that benefits those with such special knowledge, often to the detriment of their followers.

For being non racist you certainly appear to be placing the Onondaga on a decidedly higher plane than the rest of humanity. Of course many religions lay claim to preferred status from their created divine beings. Without such a belief backing them, as well as the publication of Der Judenstaat in 1896, the ancient alien Jews would probably not have founded the modern state of Israel so such a belief can produce results.

I didn't mean special religious knowledge. I just meant cultural knowledge...like oral traditions and such. Stuff that you learn from being around your aunties and uncles, and grandparents, stuff that isn't in books. That's what I mean. Every family has it's particular culture, and every community has its cultures, and when communities all have a similar experience (such as blacks around the country) there are certain cultural things we "get" and are even a given because we are around it, we know the stories, we know the history. An outsider couldn't possibly get it unless they were raised around it...or were really interested and embedded themselves in the culture.

That's what I meant. Not like pope has special knowledge about god--I don't believe that.

Placing someone on a higher moral ground? Not really. I am just stating what I know of them in relation to US history, the treaty and land claims. I am not very familiar with the Onondaga.

But, speaking kindly of people does produce results, plus I am an outsider I can only give a compassionate outsiders understanding because there's a lot of ignorance and bigotry surrounding these issues. You never know when racism slips in. Our popular and political culture is teaming with it so its hard to pry from (even well-meaning allies make silly comments and assertions). But, you will find (perhaps), if you get me talking on issues relating to other communities I will likely talk as kind.

Doesn't mean I don't know the "dirty laundry", so to speak. I'm not usually about to point the finger unless it's at myself or society in general. Or politicians. I don't mind ragging on certain politicians.

Geez, just because I talk about people of different races doesn't mean I'm a racist. Far from it...I am a million times more interested in culture than race, it just so happens the two often mesh and become interchangeable (in certain countries, not all).