Surveillance cameras

[TheoK]

The "liberals" in Europe are traitors. It was a "liberal" government passing through Sweden's original gun law in 1927 too 

[Parts]

If they can do it they will.  It might not happen a lot at first but soon it will become the norm.  I am shocked they passed that law there,  I don't think they would ever be able to get it to pass here.

I would have thought it impossible a few weeks ago too.

It was a liberal parliament who designed the legislation too. 

If it had been the conservatives they probably would have wanted body cavity searches too

['andersom']

If they can do it they will.  It might not happen a lot at first but soon it will become the norm.  I am shocked they passed that law there,  I don't think they would ever be able to get it to pass here.

I would have thought it impossible a few weeks ago too.

It was a liberal parliament who designed the legislation too. 

If it had been the conservatives they probably would have wanted body cavity searches too

Liberals here are mainly right wing.

Cavity searches still are not allowed at random, not even when in risk areas. That would make things "interesting" with cameras around.

[Adam]

To me, any is enough.

That leads down a very dark and depressing road that has and could be used to justify just about anything.

Um, if I was using it as a blanket justification for anything, then yes. I'm not though. I'm using it to justify cameras in public areas

Hyke - you seem to think I don't value privacy, or that I'm not concerned about government invading privacy. That couldn't be further from the truth, especially given the situation I am in myself. However I don't view CCTV cameras in PUBLIC as a privacy issue

Adam shows his naïveté again and again 

How? We may disagree (clearly we do), but I dont see how that makes me naive

['andersom']

It's the depersonalisation, combined with entering privacy, that bothers me. It is not just about surveillance cameras. It is about the right to see everything from a civilian.

All the money used for that, it would have much more effect if that same money was used to make streets, alleys, and such a thing people saw as something that is theirs, and, their responsibility too. A sense of community would prevent more crimes than lots and lots of cameras ever will.

In shopping grounds with vandalism, cameras will not work that much. Addressing the vandals, giving them schooling, and jobs, in the same shopping ground, would give them self-respect, they learn, they earn, and, they would take care of the place they work and live. The costs might be just as high, the benefits way and way bigger.

(That shopping ground experiment has been done somewhere in Rotterdam, IIRC. It worked well both for the vandalising drop-outs as for the shopkeepers and the whole centre)


An FB X-party in Haren, getting out of hand completely got lots of footage on cameras, phone cameras. There were no massive amounts of surveillance cameras. Despite that, there is a huge amount of footage.

[odeon]

We've had this discussion before, I think. I still don't like them and I remain doubtful of their usefulness. As parts' links show, they don't solve that many crimes and they can be (and often are) abused by Big Brother.

[Lestat]

Big Brother is NOT a friend of the people. The state, by its very nature, craves control over people, and will stoop to all manner of abuses in order to hang onto power, and of course, they always 'need' this, that, or the other new form of authority, something else to enforce/or to better enforce some existing regulations.

The plague of CCTV cameras is hardly a deterrent to criminals, solve few crimes, and in general, those 'innovations' that give the pork, and big brother yet more of the power they so greedily crave, are not good things to be used in the spirit of benevolence. Much more often, they are, or wind up being, used to create and maintain a state of fear, uncertainty and doubt amongst us 'common people'

Or as one (now former) govt. minister over here in the UK so charmingly put it 'plebs'

And I for one, don't take to the idea of being watched, nearly everywhere I go if its in a public, urban/city place, it just doesn't sit well with my private, and introvert nature.

Thank hades that the infestation hasn't reached the places I feel most 'at home' and at peace, out in the woods.

[odeon]

The thing about CCTV cameras is control, just as the nekkid X-ray machines at airports. They do love power, those already in power.

[lutra]

Um, my 50 pence worth?

In the centre of this small city there are over 30 cameras hanging on 'strategic' points. Føckers (police) here use them for other things than solving or preventing crime also though.

An example, and I remember more than one, but.. I once was 'spotted', riding my bicycle back to home in the evening.. without lights (albeit small but that's a violation of the law here). Just bought some groceries in the downtown supermarket and they saw, via their camera network, where I was heading and they called their street collegaes and I was given a ticket (of €50) there and then.

Føckers also tracked me down via my old cell phone. I was riding my moped in a rural area a little up north from this city and out of the blue a helicopter popped up above me and for the sake of.. what? Well, fuck it started following me. So I went off-road onto forest paths (trees in full 'plumage'), switched off my phone and did 'me old' 270° trick. And got rid of them.

Don't like paranoid thinking (don't care about that stuff/not to be scared off by unethical fear-mongery) but this city, powers that be, crossed some quite thickly drawn lines and some are total scum of the earth. Irresponsibly and mega-stupid.

[TheoK]

The thing about CCTV cameras is control, just as the nekkid X-ray machines at airports. They do love power, those already in power.

And you still want to be ruled by psychopaths like that? Strange.

[odeon]

The thing about CCTV cameras is control, just as the nekkid X-ray machines at airports. They do love power, those already in power.

And you still want to be ruled by psychopaths like that? Strange.

Your way would result in basically the same problem, only worse. Power corrupts, regardless of the underlying ideology.

[TheoK]

Here is some logical flaw. "My" way would mean that everyone had equal power. How could anyone be oppressed if everybody had equal power?

Anarchy doesn't mean that you do what you want but that the laws/rules have the consent of everyone they are concerning.

It is this system with lies, laws forced upon people against their will and monopoly on violence that makes it possible to oppress people to start with.

[midlifeaspie]

Here is some logical flaw. "My" way would mean that everyone had equal power. How could anyone be oppressed if everybody had equal power?

Anarchy doesn't mean that you do what you want but that the laws/rules have the consent of everyone they are concerning.

It is this system with lies, laws forced upon people against their will and monopoly on violence that makes it possible to oppress people to start with.

OK, I'll bite.

How do you enforce "equal power"?
How do you create laws with "everyone's consent"?  How do you ever get everyone to agree about anything?
How is the current system "against our will" when the vast majority of us are consenting?  We are all too dumb to know our own will?

[TheoK]

OK, I'll bite.

How do you enforce "equal power"?

Very simple. No monopoly on violence. Every decision is made through a referendum, and the democracy isn't a forcing one, like the one we have now. If you find the decision of the majority unbearable, you are free to leave the society, although as long as you don't commit crimes, you don't have to move physically.

Say that you refuse to pay tax. In the current society, the IRS and the cops come and take your money and/or property. If you resist violently enough, you get killed. In an anarchist society nothing would happen to you (if there was anything like tax at all), except that you would be denied social services paid by the tax.

How do you create laws with "everyone's consent"?  How do you ever get everyone to agree about anything?

See above.

How is the current system "against our will" when the vast majority of us are consenting?  We are all too dumb to know our own will?

Nothing is easier to corrupt than the will of the people. Most people don't want to get killed. Despite that "democracies" usually don't have more problems to get people to fight wars than dictatorships have.

[midlifeaspie]

Sounds like it would only work at the level of a village or small town.