Poll

Are courts being fair if they use 'hate crime enhancements'?

Yes
No
don't know
in some cases

Author Topic: Are hate crime enhancements fair?  (Read 5100 times)

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Offline bodie

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2012, 03:17:02 PM »
The tweet thing is moving into very dodgy ground.  A man did go to prison in the summer for a 'hate crime' message on twitter.

It makes me feel quite uneasy when we lock people up for stuff they say. :-\
blah blah blah

Offline Adam

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2012, 03:17:43 PM »

Isn't that more justified than cameras everywhere? It is written down to be read, isn't it?

What do you mean?

I'm not against it being read, obviously. I'm talkign about police taking ACTION against people for writing insults on the internet

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2012, 03:18:56 PM »

Isn't that more justified than cameras everywhere? It is written down to be read, isn't it?

What do you mean?

I'm not against it being read, obviously. I'm talkign about police taking ACTION against people for writing insults on the internet
Read you wrong there, sorry.
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Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2012, 03:28:41 PM »
Rage, I wasn't going after religion as a scapegoat - but giving examples of how far-fetched human reasoning can easily be. Dumbness comes easy with people :D

Hyke, writing it down is practical. People have different opinions as to what is common sense. Like I said, many people simply do not consider death to even be a big deal. Terrorists will typically be fanatical and often full of "spiritual" beliefs, leading them to consider human lives - their own and others - to be entirely expendable, a mere effect in a message. All opinions are NOT valid - strictly speaking.
In science you come across this often: Many people think it's "lame" that "birds are dinosaurs", but this is not open for debate - opinion is powerless and irrelevant. People are FULL of opinions and angles and points of views, and it's up to society to come to a consensus regarding many things, such as laws and rules of conduct, and put down a firm frame around it - one that is immune to varying opinion.

Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2012, 03:38:55 PM »

Isn't that more justified than cameras everywhere? It is written down to be read, isn't it?

What do you mean?

I'm not against it being read, obviously. I'm talkign about police taking ACTION against people for writing insults on the internet

There are varying degrees of accountability tho. There are people, normal-enough computer-sitting people like-you-and-me, who spend their time conciously brewing violence through writing. They are being concious and clever in their manipulation, and their intention is to cause violence to happen. "Fjordman" is a very good example, as his writings included very conciously put "suggestions" to cause violence - even rushing the reader, creating tension - and famously, he was the one Breivik credited the most for being a source of inspiration.
"Fjordman" was of course relieved of all guilt, since speech is free - but obviously, normal common sense suggests that he should have shared at least a portion of the accountability. One can't just write and say exactly what comes to mind. Humans are very creative, and sometimes very clever as well, and manipulation is a real thing. Many a genocide has come from free speech. Many a murder has been verbally ordered.

I don't know about the twitter example in particular, and I'm all for free speech - but with a certain restriction. When the intention becomes clear, and the attempt to actually manipulate and create violence is there, then there should be some sort of consequence.
You keep posting links to that newspaper which keeps making people more and more bigoted. For now they are a source of eyerolls and snickers, but what if they decide to get brutal? They would allready have hundreds of thousands of loyal followers, or more? The Rwandan genocide was spurred by, amongst other, an italian in a radio channel - and we all know, we are no better than rwandans, when it comes down to it. We are no better than germans either :D

Offline Adam

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2012, 05:18:33 PM »
Im not talking about people who are inciting violence. Im talking about people being arrested for offending people

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2012, 05:24:30 PM »
Im not talking about people who are inciting violence. Im talking about people being arrested for offending people

Offending, charge them for the offending.
Violence on top of that, charge them for the violence on top of that.
Offence leading to extra violence, charge them for organising more violence.

All this can be done, without naming it hate crime.
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Offline Adam

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2012, 06:06:46 PM »
My point was that people shouldnt be being arrested for offending someone, full stop

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2012, 06:47:19 PM »
My point was that people shouldnt be being arrested for offending someone, full stop

Depends on the severity and durance of the offending, and what it leads to. Can't rule out that someone needs to be punished for that. Systematic offending can be harmful, and contagious too, making it extra powerful.


Its all those thin lines, and all those exceptions and details that makes I would not want offending rated as hatecrime, would not want to rate anything in itself as hatecrime. Circumstances make things what they are in effect.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 06:49:01 PM by hykeaswell »
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Offline Adam

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 06:55:15 PM »
Can you give an example of where someone should have the police involved because they were offended?

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2012, 07:04:13 PM »
Can you give an example of where someone should have the police involved because they were offended?

A single insult, a single offence, should not lead to that.

But, offence after offence breaks someone. Imagine at a work-floor, someone offended and offended by co-workers and superiors. That can break someone down. It changes the attitude of others towards the offended person too.
Can lead to sudden changes in job description, or other shitty things. Because that person is nothing but a....

Offence after offence is what justifies beating up a gay couple, after leaving the club they visited. Happens.

Don't want to make offending a hate crime. But, when it gets out of hand, it should be possible to act on it.
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Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2012, 07:20:02 PM »
Bullying is a long string of offenses, and bullying can lead people to suicide.
It's an alternative to murder, and should not be so easy to get away with.
Therefore, from what I know, in for example norwegian law, there are specifications about offensive behaviour. I can't think of anybody who would call the cops on someone offending someone, but at least it's there.

Offline Adam

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2012, 07:44:01 PM »
There are already laws to deal with that - harrassment etc.

Keep on tweeting someone homophobic/racist messages, that's different

I'm talking about isolated incidents. Maybe you guys are confused as you're not familiar with the situation in the UK

Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2012, 07:48:25 PM »
uhm
the internet is brimming with insults :I I doubt there's an epidemic of insults and offenses being investigated by police as crimes :I

Offline Adam

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Re: Are hate crime enhancements fair?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2012, 08:09:20 PM »
An epidemic? Of course not. 99% of insults aren't going to be reported to the police

There are plenty that have been though. I'm talking about in this country/.