*HHGGGRRRRNNNNGNGGGGGHHHH* *BLLLLEEEAAAAARRRRGGHHHH*!!!!!!!!!

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

The cultural thing is USA business culture needlessly glorifying extroversion.

I haven't worked in the USA, but that is a good observation.

That expectation of extroversion and sociability has spread to other parts of the world. It is very noticeable in IT, where extroversion and sociability used to be rare.

I bumped into someone I knew on the train a while ago. She was telling me about how her company had hired a bunch of trainee actuaries. HR got into the process and said that they couldn't hire people that fit the introverted stereotype, they had to hire people who were a good "cultural fit". So they hired some really smart graduates, and made sure that all of them were well presented and had great social media profiles and were extroverts with very active social lives, kids who wanted to travel and have fun and great experiences.

Then they stuck them all in workstations and got them to look at spreadsheets and numbers 8 hours a day. And they hated it, most of them left and got more interactive jobs.

[Jack]

I hadn't noticed whether people were inherently less considerate overall when they were in cubicles.

Thinking an open office inspires people to at least look busy, and that means they're probably also more quiet. Notice now it's much less common to walk up to someone and find them looking at their phone.

But that's just it. You want the appearance of looking busy which often defeats the purpose. A lot of my work I spend thinking rather than hacking away at the keyboard, but to other people it will look like I'm just staring or drawing faces or browsing distractedly, none of which is what people expect from someone busy working.

I always had a feeling that managers prefer open spaces because they can keep tabs on people.

Have always had jobs which require some level of contemplative screen staring, so sitting quietly staring at a screen with work on it seems sufficient to appearing busy. Though do think it's good an open office makes people more aware of appearances. Those people who frequently show up late, leave early, take long lunches, or don't show up at all, feel more exposed. Although they were probably highly noticed anyway even with walls and quietly ticking off their peers. People are more likely to be in their seats when they're supposed to, and that can ease underlying hostilities. People are less likely to dress like slobs, eat smelly food at their desk, or bring their kids into the office; again underlying hostilities. My boss seems to care about appearances. She doesn't come right out and say it, but have the impression she prefers us in our seats, to avoid work from home days, to take our machines home each day even when on vacation. Am happy to put on whatever appearances she wants me to.

It shouldn't be about location and appearances, it should be about delivery and productivity.

But it is about delivery and productivity. It's as if you might be thinking everyone is like you, when you're probably a rarity. You said: "Why companies insist that people sit in open spaces trying to work is beyond me. Yeah, I know, it's cheaper but I'd think the loss in productivity would matter." For the reasons I've discussed, I can understand how an open office would increase productivity for the vast majority of people, as well as foster a work culture where employees are less hostile and behave more professionally. Would absolutely prefer a cube or office if given the choice, but it's certainly not beyond me why I don't have one.

I don't understand why open spaces would increase productivity for the vast majority, sorry - you've not convinced me. I can see how it fosters an *appearance* of productivity but that's not the same thing.

I dunno. Maybe it's a cultural thing, too.

Not really trying to convince you. Let's say for the sake of argument it's not more productive. There was actually a study which showed it it's not more productive, referenced by countless articles. Was hoping someone would bring it up, but oh well. Also saw a study out there which compares open office, cubicle and office, which concludes cubicle workers are the most productive. There's also a study which shows cubicle workers are the most unhappy and dissatisfied with their workspace. There's probably a reason cubes are compared to prison cells. It should be about productivity, sure, and also other things.

Looking busy and productive is a kind of performance art.

QFT

Guess all those people who I used to frequently see playing on their phones or browsing facebook will have to learn that art. Good.


One reason I'm looking forward to moving to the new facility is because it will be open office. If there were cubes, then only certain people would have the luxury of the views and natural lighting, and I'd be ticked if I didn't get one. When I was switched to open office, I had a window cube. It was a status symbol like the offices, and if being honest, that's the main reason I sneered at the change; I lost my special treatment. Whoopty doo. My losing it probably eased tensions around me.

Sometimes I beat around the bush because it's conducive to conversation, but am growing a little tired of this one, so will get to the point. Not willing to concede it's generally better for people to be shut away in boxes with maximum productivity being the number one thing a company cares about them. Though will concede open offices are likely not the most productive working environments. Am also wanting you to concede it's not only about productivity; your office made you feel important, and working from home makes your absences feel more exposed.

[odeon]

Sometimes I beat around the bush because it's conducive to conversation, but am growing a little tired of this one, so will get to the point. Not willing to concede it's generally better for people to be shut away in boxes with maximum productivity being the number one thing a company cares about them. Though will concede open offices are likely not the most productive working environments. Am also wanting you to concede it's not only about productivity; your office made you feel important, and working from home makes your absences feel more exposed.

Honestly, I can't recall my office ever making me feel more important. When I first started out as a contractor working for this huge company (that shall remain nameless here) everyone got their own offices as a matter of policy. Us contractors were moved around some over the years but only once did they put some of us in the same room, and that happened mostly because the company was expanding and the building was being renovated.

Later, when I stopped being an independent contractor, every employer I had would either give me my own room or have me share one with one more person, usually the former. Only when working on-site for a client did I have to share open office space, which made sense since most contractors would not be on-site for long anyway.

Only when I started working in the UK did I end up in an open office space. In that office, all Content Architecture desks were hot desks, meaning that whoever got in first in the morning got to pick the best spot. I always made sure to be in the office by 7.30 AM or so, knowing that most of my colleagues lived at least an hour's commute, by train and on the tube, from the city and so wouldn't be in until some time after 8. I'd get a desk at the window, not because of the view (other office buildings really aren't that exciting after the first few looks) but because of fewer distractions.

Of course, I'd still work remotely a lot of the time, as would many other team members. The company was truly global so we had people all over the UK, some EU countries and the US, and everything was designed to allow for remote workers. It worked quite well. My productivity would go down when in the office because of the many distractions but OTOH, we had a great team and it was good to see them. Well, those on-site.

My current employer in Denmark is the first I've had to have me sit in an open office space. I have my own spot next to others in my team, which doesn't really make sense since we don't actually share all that much work. I work from home most of the time, which is a lot more effective for me. The problem is that the company isn't really used to remote workers and so a lot of the infrastructure isn't in place, nor is the mindset.

Comparing the Danish and UK offices to what I've had before, those open spaces do not make much sense to me. What I had before didn't make me feel more important, it just made me more productive.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

When you work in a cubicle or private office there are these things called private conversations. You wanna talk to Fred, you gotta visit Fred's cubicle. In an open plan office there is no private conversation.

I am more distracted by auditory stuff than visual. Prefer open plan offices or ideally a soundproof room.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

I had one batshit crazy boss who made me work 70+ hours a week and broke all promises of time in lieu and pay increases. He made everyone work in a sweatshop setup along both sides of a long bench. He used to sneak up behind me and try to catch me not working but he was a noisy old buzzard. When I heard him coming I would start browsing job ads until he gave up watching me, then I would get back to work.

[Jack]

When you work in a cubicle or private office there are these things called private conversations. You wanna talk to Fred, you gotta visit Fred's cubicle. In an open plan office there is no private conversation.

I am more distracted by auditory stuff than visual. Prefer open plan offices or ideally a soundproof room.

In an office, sure, but was always acutely aware there's no such thing as a private conversation in a cubicle. Not sure if visual or sound is more distracting. Probably both do, and the greater is the more noticed. Used to think it was visual because when having an office, had to keep the bottom portion of my blinds closed to block out the motion of passing traffic even though it wasn't very close, and the motion of people passing by the doorway bothered me. The fact noise once bothered me enough to behave completely out of character shows it may bother me more than I realize. While it's not good for a lot of people, an artificially lit soulless box is quite comfortable for me. Though have been in a cube or office for a long time, so that doesn't mean being out of a box hasn't been positive for my mental wellbeing. A lot of changes have been positive for that in the last year, so it's difficult to say.

[Jack]

Sometimes I beat around the bush because it's conducive to conversation, but am growing a little tired of this one, so will get to the point. Not willing to concede it's generally better for people to be shut away in boxes with maximum productivity being the number one thing a company cares about them. Though will concede open offices are likely not the most productive working environments. Am also wanting you to concede it's not only about productivity; your office made you feel important, and working from home makes your absences feel more exposed.

Honestly, I can't recall my office ever making me feel more important. When I first started out as a contractor working for this huge company (that shall remain nameless here) everyone got their own offices as a matter of policy. Us contractors were moved around some over the years but only once did they put some of us in the same room, and that happened mostly because the company was expanding and the building was being renovated.

Later, when I stopped being an independent contractor, every employer I had would either give me my own room or have me share one with one more person, usually the former. Only when working on-site for a client did I have to share open office space, which made sense since most contractors would not be on-site for long anyway.

Only when I started working in the UK did I end up in an open office space. In that office, all Content Architecture desks were hot desks, meaning that whoever got in first in the morning got to pick the best spot. I always made sure to be in the office by 7.30 AM or so, knowing that most of my colleagues lived at least an hour's commute, by train and on the tube, from the city and so wouldn't be in until some time after 8. I'd get a desk at the window, not because of the view (other office buildings really aren't that exciting after the first few looks) but because of fewer distractions.

Of course, I'd still work remotely a lot of the time, as would many other team members. The company was truly global so we had people all over the UK, some EU countries and the US, and everything was designed to allow for remote workers. It worked quite well. My productivity would go down when in the office because of the many distractions but OTOH, we had a great team and it was good to see them. Well, those on-site.

My current employer in Denmark is the first I've had to have me sit in an open office space. I have my own spot next to others in my team, which doesn't really make sense since we don't actually share all that much work. I work from home most of the time, which is a lot more effective for me. The problem is that the company isn't really used to remote workers and so a lot of the infrastructure isn't in place, nor is the mindset.

Comparing the Danish and UK offices to what I've had before, those open spaces do not make much sense to me. What I had before didn't make me feel more important, it just made me more productive.

Was under the impression your current employer switched you to open office, not only losing a confined space but also losing a designated space. Offices are in fact status symbols. Managers completely crapped their pants about losing their offices. It was interesting to watch, but not watching them crapping their pants per se . What was interesting was that I saw blatant gibes coming from the new company's managers who were already accustomed to open office, directed at the acquired managers who were losing their offices. Managers protested with countless logical sounding reasons why they absolutely needed walls, but never once heard one say those walls make them feel valued above people who don't have them, although I think the other managers knew.

[odeon]

^Jack, no, I never had an office at my current workplace, only a desk.

Came to think of it, another really annoying thing that seems to regularly happen in open office spaces is that people appropriate your stuff - office chairs, keyboards, mice - and replace them with something that is broken, dirty or just awful. I don't know how many times I've had someone nick my chair while I was away.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

In an office, sure, but was always acutely aware there's no such thing as a private conversation in a cubicle.

I mean that in an open office if I want to ask Fred who he thinks should be dropped from the Australian cricket team to make way for Glenn Maxwell, in an open office I just say "Hey Fred..." and this draws in anyone within earshot. While in a cubicle I have to walk around to Fred's cubicle and ask. If someone else hears and wants to join the conversation then they can walk around as well.

An open office has a "vibe" that you can feel. Friday afternoons have almost a party vibe. Monday mornings have a "not this shit again" vibe. Cubicles don't have that so much.

Just my experience, yours may differ.

[Jack]

^Jack, no, I never had an office at my current workplace, only a desk.

Came to think of it, another really annoying thing that seems to regularly happen in open office spaces is that people appropriate your stuff - office chairs, keyboards, mice - and replace them with something that is broken, dirty or just awful. I don't know how many times I've had someone nick my chair while I was away.

That's awful. Nothing has ever been taken of mine, and don't hear of it from others. Have nice metal rulers and years ago one came up missing so bought a new one. About a year later, found it in some paperwork when cleaning and felt like a total ass for assuming it was taken. Another time my keyboard came up missing, but it was when I was training my replacements so I didn't have a designated workspace of my own, and my things were sitting off to the side looking abandoned. It was returned because it was part of a wireless keyboard and mouse set; the usb was in my machine so it wouldn't work for anyone else anyway. People tend to borrow chairs from the conference rooms instead of people. There's plenty of them and they're a different color, so people put them back too.

[Jack]

In an office, sure, but was always acutely aware there's no such thing as a private conversation in a cubicle.

I mean that in an open office if I want to ask Fred who he thinks should be dropped from the Australian cricket team to make way for Glenn Maxwell, in an open office I just say "Hey Fred..." and this draws in anyone within earshot. While in a cubicle I have to walk around to Fred's cubicle and ask. If someone else hears and wants to join the conversation then they can walk around as well.

An open office has a "vibe" that you can feel. Friday afternoons have almost a party vibe. Monday mornings have a "not this shit again" vibe. Cubicles don't have that so much.

Just my experience, yours may differ.

Ah, I see. Yes the vibe thing is different, but because of circumstances. The change came with an acquisition in which people were relocated here. Thinking upper management knew there would be an us vs them problem, so in order to unify us, they upset everyone instead of making the acquired employees be the only ones who have to conform. We were only turned on our ear culturally and overworked, crammed into the crappier parts of the building to make room for an invading swarm of millennials since the young were the ones willing to move, however they were the ones who had to uproot their lives and change to conform to our systems and processes. The first year, the vibe was frustration, but they keep shaking us up and it will be at least a year before they're done shaking us up, so right now the vibe is probably more fear. Now that I actually have time to think about it, I notice there's a lot of psychology behind what's been happening. The new building will definitely change things even more to further solidarity and overall sense of equality. Maybe I'll have different things to say about it a couple years from now, but right now there's probably no one who feels settled enough to feel comfortable being a problem, so it's kind of nice.

[odeon]

^Jack, no, I never had an office at my current workplace, only a desk.

Came to think of it, another really annoying thing that seems to regularly happen in open office spaces is that people appropriate your stuff - office chairs, keyboards, mice - and replace them with something that is broken, dirty or just awful. I don't know how many times I've had someone nick my chair while I was away.

That's awful. Nothing has ever been taken of mine, and don't hear of it from others. Have nice metal rulers and years ago one came up missing so bought a new one. About a year later, found it in some paperwork when cleaning and felt like a total ass for assuming it was taken. Another time my keyboard came up missing, but it was when I was training my replacements so I didn't have a designated workspace of my own, and my things were sitting off to the side looking abandoned. It was returned because it was part of a wireless keyboard and mouse set; the usb was in my machine so it wouldn't work for anyone else anyway. People tend to borrow chairs from the conference rooms instead of people. There's plenty of them and they're a different color, so people put them back too.

Office chairs going missing are the worst. Some of the chairs in the office are old and worn out, and I always seemed to get those. Or this one time, those weird ergonomic ones that only a few people can actually sit on for more than a minute or so.

In the UK, good keyboards were the real commodity. The hot desk system made it really difficult to track everything but there were always some desks that nobody wanted to use. People would even borrow desks on other floors if too many people decided to work in the office rather than remotely.

[Jack]

^Jack, no, I never had an office at my current workplace, only a desk.

Came to think of it, another really annoying thing that seems to regularly happen in open office spaces is that people appropriate your stuff - office chairs, keyboards, mice - and replace them with something that is broken, dirty or just awful. I don't know how many times I've had someone nick my chair while I was away.

That's awful. Nothing has ever been taken of mine, and don't hear of it from others. Have nice metal rulers and years ago one came up missing so bought a new one. About a year later, found it in some paperwork when cleaning and felt like a total ass for assuming it was taken. Another time my keyboard came up missing, but it was when I was training my replacements so I didn't have a designated workspace of my own, and my things were sitting off to the side looking abandoned. It was returned because it was part of a wireless keyboard and mouse set; the usb was in my machine so it wouldn't work for anyone else anyway. People tend to borrow chairs from the conference rooms instead of people. There's plenty of them and they're a different color, so people put them back too.

Office chairs going missing are the worst. Some of the chairs in the office are old and worn out, and I always seemed to get those. Or this one time, those weird ergonomic ones that only a few people can actually sit on for more than a minute or so.

In the UK, good keyboards were the real commodity. The hot desk system made it really difficult to track everything but there were always some desks that nobody wanted to use. People would even borrow desks on other floors if too many people decided to work in the office rather than remotely.

Have really come to appreciate being with a company which values uniformity of equipment. It equates to equality, and frankly looks much nicer. It was sometimes a sore spot with my previous company, people complaining about others having nicer things. One time a team member who had back problems requested and received a new chair, which prompted half the department to crybaby want a new chair. Was offered a new chair even though not asking for one, but declined. My chair was a little scruffy, but had sat in it for years without any discomfort and wasn't willing to mess with that. Another time I asked my boss if I could open a service ticket for a new mouse, and she offered me a new monitor. She told me she was ticked because she had replaced a faulty monitor for one team member and they ended up getting a much larger and nicer one as a replacement. This prompted three other people in the department to open tickets for new monitors without asking her permission, spending the department's budget which apparently didn't require management approval for them to do. Told her thanks but my monitor was fine and would settle for a mouse that doesn't frustrate me.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

I have busted a lot of office chairs over the years. Sometimes I end up sprawled on the floor, laughing, surrounded by what used to be my chair.

Office chairs with an arch in the backrest give me back cramps. I have been using a little meeting room chair for 2 years, they are designed to not be too comfortable but because the back is straight I love them. They are also sturdy.

Equipment upgrades used to be a big deal when IT equipment was absurdly expensive. Now a very flash laptop plus monitors plus keyboard plus mouse costs less than paying a contractor for a week. First laptop I ever saw cost about 6 months of my salary. First time I had a single screen and keyboard on my desk or it represented about 3 months of my salary. So equipment upgrades used to make a huge hole in the budget.

[Charlotte Quin]

Haha, this is 5 years later. I can't remember if you said what happened to the guy.

So what happened?

He died . I guess he really was sick!!

His unit got sold and there's some semi retired bloke living there now illegally running a carpentry business in his garage