Suicide

[odeon]

I think you missed my point. The nurses should always act *professionally* when treating patients but they should be allowed to be angry. As I pointed out before, they see death every day and they know that they can't always save everyone. They also know that there aren't enough medics so saving a suicidal person might indirectly result in the death of someone who just happened to be sick.

[Kaelyrhn]

What makes a suicidal person any less important than any other patient?

[odeon]

The fact that they attempted suicide. If you don't value your life enough, why are you expecting someone else to?

[Adam]

So people who smoke or eat too much junk are less valuable than people who have a very strict diet and exercise every day?

[Adam]

Of course people have the right to be angry btw. People have the right to have ANY feelings in any situation. They have the right to feel angry or disgusted at any patient

[odeon]

So people who smoke or eat too much junk are less valuable than people who have a very strict diet and exercise every day?

Nice strawman.

[Adam]

Well they clearly don't value their life enough, so why should their doctors?

[Kaelyrhn]

The fact that they attempted suicide. If you don't value your life enough, why are you expecting someone else to?

*sigh*

That's not at all what suicide is about. It's not that they don't value their lives, but rather suicide is a response to pain. When pain exceeds the available coping mechanisms, suicide and self harm become an option. Severe low self esteem, coupled with depression and emotional pain can creating a system to thinking that leads the patient to believe that those they care about would be better off without them, that their lives are meaningless, pointless and wasted on them. It's not that they don't value the life, but rather they feel that they have wasted it. Paradoxically it might even be a result of actually valuing their life and wanting a pain free existence. It has very little to do with not valuing their life, or actually wanting to die.

But even if those who are suicidal don't value their lives, and even if they would want nurses to look after other patients first, I'd say they are in a clear need of someone valuing their life, because if the patient doesn't value their life and the nurses don't either what message is the patient receiving? You're right to devalue your own life, you're not worth our time. You should've just died and not burdened us with your crap.

The mental illnesses that precipitate suicide it are critical, and often very acute. They are just as much in need to immediate and due care as any other patient. Of course if their life isn't in immediate danger and they're being properly supervised and there are other patients in a more immediate danger, then the nurses should focus on those patients, but only on a matter of danger to life priority. NOT because the suicide patient is less important.

So people who smoke or eat too much junk are less valuable than people who have a very strict diet and exercise every day?

Good point, the only priority in medical care is on a immediate danger basis. Who is in the most immediate danger? It should not matter whether that person is nutritionally neglectful, suicidal, old, or poor, or even healthy, young and rich.

[Kaelyrhn]

So people who smoke or eat too much junk are less valuable than people who have a very strict diet and exercise every day?

Nice strawman.

I don't think that is a strawman at all. Adam raised a valid point. Well someone who smokes, drinks or eats excessively isn't "wilfully devaluing" their life, they are still devaluing it. By your own argument toward suicidal patients, these people should be subject to anger, or lack of caring from their nurses/doctors.

[odeon]

So people who smoke or eat too much junk are less valuable than people who have a very strict diet and exercise every day?

Nice strawman.

I don't think that is a strawman at all. Adam raised a valid point. Well someone who smokes, drinks or eats excessively isn't "wilfully devaluing" their life, they are still devaluing it. By your own argument toward suicidal patients, these people should be subject to anger, or lack of caring from their nurses/doctors.

Yes, I realise that is what the strawman leads to, but there is a subtle difference between eating, drinking, smoking, etc, and trying to off yourself. Can you guess what that little difference is?

As for the rest of the argument, most of it is up there and I can't be arsed to repeat them. A few points, however:

If you say you should have the right to try to off yourself, fine, but should the doctors have to save your sorry arse every time? Should they prioritise you rather than some poor kid with asthma? It's a case of wanting to eat the cake while keeping it for later, and while you clearly chose the mental illness route when arguing, others haven't and will probably object unless they think it's more useful to unite against horribly un-PC odeon.

Oh, and btw, the obese and the drunk are frequently subjected to anger or lack of care from medics. Probably far more frequently than the attempted suicide victims. But that wasn't what I said, did I? I said that of course they should be allowed to be angry--how can you actually stop them?--but they shouldn't be allowed to *act* on their anger.

Next strawman.

[Adam]

A suicidal person is often the victim of an ILLNESS. that is why they have done it.

Whereas someone who eats,drinks,smokes etc is often simply just choosing to put their life/health at risk

[Kaelyrhn]

If you say you should have the right to try to off yourself, fine, but should the doctors have to save your sorry arse every time?

Of course they should. It's their job.

Should they prioritise you rather than some poor kid with asthma?

Like I said, whoever is in the most immediate danger should be prioritised. If the asthmatic kid is in the most immediate danger then definitely focus on them.

Next strawman.

That itself should be a fallacy. Dismissing counter arguments by incorrectly calling them fallacious.

[Kaelyrhn]

I should note I never said people should have the right to commit suicide. I'm undecided on that, personally.

[Callaway]

I should note I never said people should have the right to commit suicide. I'm undecided on that, personally.

How could you argue that people don't have the right to commit suicide, given that you have tried to kill yourself twice and made a detailed plan to do so more recently?

[Kaelyrhn]

I should note I never said people should have the right to commit suicide. I'm undecided on that, personally.

How could you argue that people don't have the right to commit suicide, given that you have tried to kill yourself twice and made a detailed plan to do so more recently?

Are you assuming that I was thinking logically and rationally during those times?