Suicide

[odeon]

I think that nurses should act professional.

Yes, I think so too, and I guess I wasn't clear about what I meant with my comment. Apologies to you and ren, and others.

[odeon]

I remember a part in Marilyn Manson's autobiography he wrote that after he had a drug overdose some paramedics/doctors refused him medical attention at first, because they had such a strong distaste for him as a person.   

Kind of makes you wonder how often things like that happen...

Probably not that often.

[odeon]

Let's see... you try to commit suicide, fail, end up in a hospital and expect nurses to respect and support your decision while trying to save your sorry arse, instead of spending that time with somebody who actually wants to live? They see people die every day. Until you've been in their shoes you can't see why they might object.

If you can't see their situation, why should they attempt to see yours? Because they work in a hospital?

I understand why some of them are angry and I fully support their right to react.

just because your suicidal does not mean you WANT to die, necisaraly. i have been though many times when i felt like killing myself simply because it was the only way out of my situation. but just because you feel like killing yourself or you attempt to kill yourself does not mean you WANT to kill yourself. though it may seem that way to others often it simply means that you just see no other way out of it and/or feel others/the world would be better off without you.

What the medics see, though, is yet another person near death. I can't even imagine how stressful that is. Add to it that they are overworked but still need to act professionally, and I think a reaction is almost inevitable.

An attempted suicide is an act of desperation, yes, and the person should get help. But I find the arguments for and against their right to do so confusing and conflicting. If you think you are within your rights to end your life and attempt it but fail, what then? Is it obvious that the society should do everything they can to get you back on your feet? If you are still suicidal, should you be locked in and forced to therapy? How should society prioritise all this? There just aren't enough resources and some will not get the help they need as a result.

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm not taking sides, and I'm certainly not judging, but I think there is something missing here. Plenty of people want to live but do not get the medical attention in time and they die as a result. This has happened to people I know, and it's talked about in the media regularly around here.

[odeon]

people who are gonna treat patients like that should not be in the job in the first place

I doubt they do it all the time. I think it's a reaction.

[Callaway]

I remember a part in Marilyn Manson's autobiography he wrote that after he had a drug overdose some paramedics/doctors refused him medical attention at first, because they had such a strong distaste for him as a person.   

Kind of makes you wonder how often things like that happen...

I read about a case where the ER doctor had only a limited understanding of Spanish and a suicidal woman who spoke only Spanish came into his ER talking about pills.  After securing what he thought was her promise not to kill herself, he sent her home.  Only after she died and her death was investigated did he learn that what she actually said to him was that she had already taken what turned out to be a fatal dose of pills and was seeking help for that.

[Zippo]

Let's see... you try to commit suicide, fail, end up in a hospital and expect nurses to respect and support your decision while trying to save your sorry arse, instead of spending that time with somebody who actually wants to live? They see people die every day. Until you've been in their shoes you can't see why they might object.

If you can't see their situation, why should they attempt to see yours? Because they work in a hospital?

I understand why some of them are angry and I fully support their right to react.

just because your suicidal does not mean you WANT to die, necisaraly. i have been though many times when i felt like killing myself simply because it was the only way out of my situation. but just because you feel like killing yourself or you attempt to kill yourself does not mean you WANT to kill yourself. though it may seem that way to others often it simply means that you just see no other way out of it and/or feel others/the world would be better off without you.

What the medics see, though, is yet another person near death. I can't even imagine how stressful that is. Add to it that they are overworked but still need to act professionally, and I think a reaction is almost inevitable.

An attempted suicide is an act of desperation, yes, and the person should get help. But I find the arguments for and against their right to do so confusing and conflicting. If you think you are within your rights to end your life and attempt it but fail, what then? Is it obvious that the society should do everything they can to get you back on your feet? If you are still suicidal, should you be locked in and forced to therapy? How should society prioritise all this? There just aren't enough resources and some will not get the help they need as a result.

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm not taking sides, and I'm certainly not judging, but I think there is something missing here. Plenty of people want to live but do not get the medical attention in time and they die as a result. This has happened to people I know, and it's talked about in the media regularly around here.

sorry, i think i misunderstood what you ment. i thought you were implying that all suicide was something that everyone who attempts or thinks of attempting WANTs to do, rather than something they feel they should do.

i think i get what you are saying. and i agree with it [if i get your opinion right.]

[bodie]

There is a nursing problem here!  don't know about other parts of the world. 

A lot of our newly qualified nurses often go to work abroad or for the private hospitals.  Which is crazy as our wards seem to have a large number of agency nurses and people drafted in from abroad.

The problem with the agency staff is that they are placed anywhere.  Not necessarily in the field they want to be in.  I found this true when my Dad was in hospital.  You could see on their faces they did not want to be with the elderly.   A lot of them did complete the required minimum care,  as in administering medicine, keeping patients clean and fed,  but with such an attitude.  Some didn't even do that,  and they were not fit to be in the job.  A small number did their tasks well, and showed much respect and care to the patients.  They were chatty and cheerful.  It is this element that makes the difference.  It is not just about the daily tasks,  the fact that they were friendly actually made the world of difference to the elderly people on that ward.

I would say a 'good' nurse is priceless!  I think they can make a huge difference to a  patients  outcome.

I think all people in hospital deserve to be cared for in such a caring way.  In particular,  where mental health is an issue.  The stories i have read from eris and ren are appalling.  Yes in some ways i sympathise with nurses in general as i think they are under paid and under valued but if they can't give that added bit of 'empathy' then they should at least be professional.  Not subjecting patients to humiliation.  That is something to complain about and warrants disciplinary action.  Totally unacceptable.  I would complain at the highest level.

[bodie]

I have just read what odeon said.  He makes a good point

But I find the arguments for and against their right to do so confusing and conflicting. If you think you are within your rights to end your life and attempt it but fail, what then? Is it obvious that the society should do everything they can to get you back on your feet? If you are still suicidal, should you be locked in and forced to therapy? How should society prioritise all this?

It must be very hard when you are expected to respect others 'right to commit suicide'  and then also 'help' those who want it/ need it.  I mean how the hell are you supposed to KNOW.  Ok someone taking a load of pills and then turning up in A&E saying 'I'v just done the lot' with an empty bottle in their hands - yeah pretty obvious they are wanting HELP.   But what about other scenarios that may not be all that clear.  Maybe they were found already unconscious or something.  How many times will the staff on these wards faced a right load of abuse because they did SAVE someone.  Do they SAVE people two or three times, or what?  I think it is perhaps an area that is highly skilled but maybe it is not recognised.  It must be soul destroying to work with someone and give them your best care only to see them again in a few months.  Perhaps staff should be trained to a higher level,  i don't know.  I still think that what ren and eris went through falls way under the mark and is a serious error in professionalism.

[Pyraxis]

WolFish is experienced with working with people in those kind of situations. It takes very good boundaries, skill, and patience.

[bodie]

WolFish is experienced with working with people in those kind of situations. It takes very good boundaries, skill, and patience.

Does he work at the frontline of those services?  all too often the first person you see is clueless?

[Adam]

I agree with odeon and bodie about it being very complicated. I support the right to take your own life, in that I don't think it should be illegal to attempt suicide, and I think people should be able to end their lives if that is what they want

But I could never just stand there and do nothing if I saw someone try to kill themselves and they were still able to be saved

It is a difficult one, as one the one hand I'm saying someone should be allowed to end their life if that is what they want. but at the same time I'd consciously try to stop them if I was there

I guess the main reason is that you don't know for sure that they had really thought it thru and weren't just desparate and could eventually get better. If someone's physically able, then there's nothing to stop them doing it somewhere isolated where no one will find them before it's too late. So i think people do have a responsibility to do whatever they can to save someone who has, say, just jumped off a bridge... while still maintaining that everyone has the right to do that and that it's then up to them if they survive, leave hospital and go and shoot themselves in the woods or something

[Adam]

Also if you do come across someone who's just attempted suciide but not succeeded, the chances are they were either making a "cry for help" or hadn't thought it thru properly and were just very despareate at the time

which means that ther's a pretty high chance they could get better and change their mind

whereas someone who's 100% certain and never gonna change their mind is more likely to do it in a way where they won't be found til it's too late.

obviously that's not always the case, and I'm not sayign people who commit suicide somewhere more public are just looking for attention or anything, just that there's a higher chance of them being "cureable" if they've done it unsuccessfully

EDIT: just realised how ridiculous that last sentence sounds haha, hopefully you all get what I mean though. I'm not explaining myself well at all here. only had an hour's sleep

[bodie]

Maybe a change in the law.  If someone signed a legal document that could be produced or shown to medics,  it might make the job easier.  Although i see flaws in that, i can think of nothing else.

[Adam]

I don't think anything's gonna happen before we at least allow some kind of assisted suicide for terminally ill people

While people are still against that, nothing will legally change regarding suicide for non-terminally ill people

It's a tough one, for the reasons you and odeon gave

[Pyraxis]

Does he work at the frontline of those services?  all too often the first person you see is clueless?

He worked for a long time as a crisis counsellor at agencies and in the ER. He has his fair share of idiot coworker stories, but he tells them much better than I could.