Could no longer bite my tongue on this...you know me.

[bodie]

I don't think it's OK when people who have never been members here (Pandora, in this case) and have until then not been involved with the site get hurt and are seen as some kind of collateral damage and nothing to be particularly sorry about. Admit it was mean, sure, apologies, hell no.

I agree totally.   Woody was another one you might say was collateral damage.  Let's face it,  there are a few we could bring up.  Is it ok to mock and ridicule Woody because he plays a trumpet, has religious beliefs and because it seems his elevator does not go straight to the top?  Do you not think he was also 'hurt' when he realised (if he has yet i don't know) that he was made a fool of?  That poor sod didn't even have anyone to stand up and say 'oi' on his behalf! 

There was something nasty about the whole thing that set it apart from most previous dramas. Personally  found the rather merciless riling up of TCO when he returned after his self-imposed ban cruel and unnecessary and something that could have been avoided if the will had been there.

I thought so too.  I cringe a bit thinking about it.  I know a few people were involved in this and the one i remember distinctly is not Butterflies but MLA!  So how come he is smelling of roses?  well TCO said something about his kids...is that not justification! well Butterflies had a similar one so why doesn't his shit stink then?  we can go on and on...

I suppose i am 'muddying the waters' but it looks to me like they are murky as hell anyway.   

I don't think that there is a reason to change the running of the site or implement new rules.  These things don't happen much, as far as i can see. 

It would be a shame to make rules now.  It is a personal challenge to me to be able to behave like a human being without them. 

 

[odeon]

You should because unless you think you are without fault, it's the decent thing to do. You were not without blame

Have never suggested I'm without blame. I don't think I'm without blame at all.

You are mistaking my apathy with believing I'm innocent.

If you'd been apathetic I would have seen the difference.

[odeon]

People seem to be reading what butterflies is saying in two different ways. Some of u are seeing her being cowardly and shifting blame. Me and some others are seeing her admitting blame and accepting it was wrong .

My problem is that ever-present "but". Yes, but others have done worse. Yes it was mean but I won't apologise. Etc. I don't see her accepting anything, I only see her shifting.

[odeon]

Tbh I don't really see anyone being "better" than the other , to say so is ridiculous.

Butterflies is not innocent and she has admitted this herself.

She made a remark about pandora to piss off Steve-O after he had told her he hopes she gets cancer and wishes death on her family.

"Rancid" was not a particularly nice thing of Butterflies to say , no but it was FAR less disgusting than what TCO said yet I didn't exactly see people tell him to stop what he was saying to her.

We already know TCO behaves like a cunt. does that mean that others have to? Does it make it OK? Desirable, even?

As for Butterflies pushing blame on to others , if she was doing that she would be claiming she was innocent not saying that she was as bad , the "but" thing is a mere fact, yes we did go over to facebook snd tried to discuss things civilly but none of us started mud slinging until Pandora flung insults at Bodie , THAT is when insults were aimed at Pandora and when the "Rancidora" name started being used.

you might want to look up the threads and study the order in which the drama unfolded.

Now can this finally be dropped? , there was shit on both sides and no one is better than the other.

Also Odeon , if you are so against non-members of this forum being targeted in such a way , where exactly were you complaining in the thread where Skyblue , Pikajedi and Farnsworth were threatening to use real-life info against Tambo-man?

Not sure I read it at the time, only when the drama spread and eris brought it up. When I was made aware of it, the main focus was already on eris's case. I do believe I did address it, though.

Where were you complaining in the thread where Butterflies , Soph and I were targetting Parakeet whilst he was only a member of WP?

Parakeet, AFAIK, was never collateral damage like Pandora was, but quite active elsewhere. I never read the WP threads but as I understood it at the time, you had legitimate issues to settle and that sort of thing was part of the concept behind I2, as Pyraxis and others will confirm. Do you see the difference between someone like Parakeet and Pandora?

If you don't, please tell me why.

Please correct me if I am wrong but right now I am seeing a distinct double standard in a lot of people.

I'm not saying I can't be inconsistent--I believe I pointed it out in a previous post. Quite the contrary. In this case I fail to see a double standard, however.

[odeon]

If Odeon isn't looking to prove to the site that I'm a bad girl, then I'll be happy to stand corrected.

If Odeon doesn't prove to the site that you're a bad girl, then I'd be disappointed.     

Don't say that. I wouldn't be surprised to see him search for all the bad things I've said, and then present them to the site as evidence that I'm evil.

What happend to the days when we could rip on eachother and it was all in good fun, and no one got butthurt over it and there weren't half a dozen call-outs over petty, stupid shit??    

You mean the time when innocent people weren't seen by some as collateral damage?

[odeon]

If Odeon isn't looking to prove to the site that I'm a bad girl, then I'll be happy to stand corrected.

If Odeon doesn't prove to the site that you're a bad girl, then I'd be disappointed.     

Don't say that. I wouldn't be surprised to see him search for all the bad things I've said, and then present them to the site as evidence that I'm evil.

I don't have to. I think I've proved my points here.

Still, if that's the way you want this to go, I'm fine with it.

[odeon]

But, I bet my but is bigger than yours. (Not going to back up my shit on this one  )

 MY butt is bigger than either of YOUR butts; if you don't believe me, call me out! 

This matter is very easily settled by you both posting pictures and letting the members judge for themselves.

[odeon]

I think it needs to be broadened, because, this seems to lead nowhere.

it's perfectly OK if it leads nowhere

If this discussion is about what the site should be about, then I'd like more examples, and more cases to think on. And then Squiddy is right in bringing TM into the discussion.

... I think what is part of the discussion here is how far are we "allowed" to go, to get our fun, and our confrontation. And, if it is about that, then this discussion needs to be a lot wider than focussing around Pandora.

Think it is time to move on beyond the discussion about Butterflies, to the discussion about the site. If we don't, this thread may go on till kingdom come, or December 21 2012, without leading anywhere.

No, no and no.

We don't need to discuss what this site is about because that's the beginning of censorship/moderation.

We are "allowed" to say and do anything within Hostgator's TOS, that's a settled issue IMO and one that odeon has repeatedly said.

If this site changes because of the TCO shit, then he has won. He had been trying all along to control peoples behavior and if we change because of him, he has succeeded. 

I understand what you are saying and wouldn't dream of introducing moderation or rules here. A discussion in this case is just that, a discussion. IF people choose to listen and do something differently, it's their choice, just as it is their choice to tell the posters to fuck off.

Free speech is not just a right but a responsibility. In that responsibility should be included other people's right to be heard.

[odeon]

I don't think it's OK when people who have never been members here (Pandora, in this case) and have until then not been involved with the site get hurt and are seen as some kind of collateral damage and nothing to be particularly sorry about. Admit it was mean, sure, apologies, hell no.

I agree totally.   Woody was another one you might say was collateral damage.  Let's face it,  there are a few we could bring up.  Is it ok to mock and ridicule Woody because he plays a trumpet, has religious beliefs and because it seems his elevator does not go straight to the top?  Do you not think he was also 'hurt' when he realised (if he has yet i don't know) that he was made a fool of?  That poor sod didn't even have anyone to stand up and say 'oi' on his behalf! 

Took me a long time to read any of that. At first I had no idea of what it was about, tbh. I didn't see any URLs until later, only an occasional post in the who is who on woods board thread, none of which I understood at the time.

But yes, you are right. That's another drama that went too far, especially when considering how clueless he appeared to be.

['Butterflies']

So. Instead of just bitching about me, why don't you  start your little discussion on the future of the site.

Seems pointless just going over and over like this when both of us have made our views clear, and are unlikely to change.

You think my behaviour was rancid and reprehensible. I think you're just butthurt because Les claims to have left.
How much longer do you want us to keep this pathetic drama going for? When other people are involved in drama, you're often one of the first to say it's getting old. Now you seem determined to drag this out as long as possible.

[Adam]

So what if Butterflies said "I won't apologise as I don't believe I need to, BUT I admit that I did wrong" ?

with the before-the-but and after-the-but the other way round?

[bodie]

Butterflies doesn't habitually go around insulting members friends.    I don't see her making unprovoked attacks on innocent people in the near future either.  She has already stated she has learned from all this and in hindsight would have played it differently.

I am still not sure of the goals behind this call out.  I don't think an apology was requested and i don't see one on the horizon so what is to be gained by repeatedly conducting an autopsy? 

 

['Butterflies']

Butterflies doesn't habitually go around insulting members friends.    I don't see her making unprovoked attacks on innocent people in the near future either.  She has already stated she has learned from all this and in hindsight would have played it differently.

I am still not sure of the goals behind this call out.  I don't think an apology was requested and i don't see one on the horizon so what is to be gained by repeatedly conducting an autopsy? 

 

Yes. This is a messy and bloody autopsy that one person seems determined to prolong. I've stated why I believe he is doing this, but of course I might be wrong. If I am wrong, then I cant even begin to imagine what his reasons are.

Also, even if I was inclined to apologize, I have no idea who I would apologize to. I wouldn't apologize to, or accept an apology from Steve. If Pandora felt she wanted to discuss things reasonably with me, I'd be prepared to speak to her in a friendly manner.

[Squidusa]

We already know TCO behaves like a cunt. does that mean that others have to? Does it make it OK? Desirable, even?

It is not desirable but why should anyone not act like a cunt to TCO?

My point was a very big fuss was made of frankly a very small remark , something which is miniscule in comparison to what TCO said and yet he did not get the shit Butterflies did.

you might want to look up the threads and study the order in which the drama unfolded.

I have.
Butterflies did not start with attacks on his family members she retaliated.

In  fact I seem to remember TCO was sending PM's to Butterflies at first about her family , so Butterflies may not be any better in a sense , but at least she had the balls to say it in the open.

Not sure I read it at the time, only when the drama spread and eris brought it up. When I was made aware of it, the main focus was already on eris's case. I do believe I did address it, though.

Right ok , I take that back then.

Parakeet, AFAIK, was never collateral damage like Pandora was, but quite active elsewhere. I never read the WP threads but as I understood it at the time, you had legitimate issues to settle and that sort of thing was part of the concept behind I2, as Pyraxis and others will confirm. Do you see the difference between someone like Parakeet and Pandora?

If you don't, please tell me why.

Parakeet made comments towards Soph and threatened legal action.
Pandora made comments about Butterflies and Binty.

There is a lot of similarities so I don't see how you can say Parakeet was justified and Pandora wasn't.

I'm not saying I can't be inconsistent--I believe I pointed it out in a previous post. Quite the contrary. In this case I fail to see a double standard, however.

Read above.

[Binty]

You should because unless you think you are without fault, it's the decent thing to do. You were not without blame

Have never suggested I'm without blame. I don't think I'm without blame at all.

You are mistaking my apathy with believing I'm innocent.

If you'd been apathetic I would have seen the difference.

Because you always know better, right?