Could no longer bite my tongue on this...you know me.

['Butterflies']

All of this is getting really fucking ridiculous.

What strikes me as odd, is that when Les was attacking Adam and I in a really disgusting and low manner, simply because we called him a dumbass in a silly argument over Shleed, odeon didn't day a word.  I know it escalated and I said awful things myself but at the start, we were just using playground insults like dumbass and old man etc.  Les, however, wrote paragraphs of poisonous essays about Adam being trans and about his OCD - trying to trigger it.  Yet odeon was completely fine with this.  Before you mention us calling him a paedophile and me attacking his kids, that was bad yes but it only happened when things started to escalate.

Now suddenly, Butterflies calls Pandora "rancid" by proxy and she's the devil. 

Something is clearly wrong here.  Or maybe it's just that older people back older people here and vice versa with us young ones.  It was something I noticed a while ago.

Yup.

I'm in three minds about Odeons behaviour.
I think he's either trying to show Les how morally outraged he is, in an attempt to win Les' favour and get him to return to the site.
Or, he really is a sanctimonious old windbag, who has only appeared cool because he doesn't have a clue about the insults that are really flying about this site. If he did, he'd probably shut the site.
Or, he's actually very easily suggestable, and Les has managed to convince him that he really is morally outraged.

[Adam]

Yeah I really don't get what's so bad about the Rancid insult

Way worse things are said on this site

Also I don't think Butterflies ever plays the innocent little me thing - hasn't she said plenty of times herself that she;s acted badly

['Butterflies']

Yeah I really don't get what's so bad about the Rancid insult

Way worse things are said on this site

Also I don't think Butterflies ever plays the innocent little me thing - hasn't she said plenty of times herself that she;s acted badly

Yes. I'm the first to admit that I'm not a well behaved person, either here, or in RL.

I'm guilty of many things, but pretending I'm an angel isn't one of them.

[Psychophant]

I am at a family 'do' now until Sun evening.   So probably won't be online til mon morning so i am not gonna see how all this plays out

So,  pretty much the same thing for me really- that is more arguing! 

I dare say this drama will be over and a new one probably be in full swing

Have a good time and I'm sure the drama will still be here for your perusal!   

[odeon]

Actually I've been talking to Sir Les as well as reading the old threads and realised that I should have posted more about all this earlier. Instead I was pissed off by what you did and remained mostly silent. Not completely, as you will note if you actually bother to read my older posts, so you are just wrong on this one.

Isolated, a lot of the TCO/Pandora stuff would not have merited a response. Put in context, however, I think this particular drama has developed in directions that I dislike enough to speak out. I have said more than once that I'm not always consistent--very few are--but I try to learn from my mistakes and not do the same ones more than once. So yes, I'm pretty sure there are times in the past when I should have reacted but for various reasons didn't.

But that's not how I would like to excuse myself if I stay silent or look the other way when I see something I think is wrong. Would you?

Can you please clarify what exactly it is that you think is so wrong that you need to speak out?  I am not being funny or facetious i simply am unclear if it is the insult she used,  or who she insulted,  or the fb thing,  or the TCO thing in general that has caused this reaction?   I don't intend to start going around getting into fights and slanging matches but would just like to know in case i ever do?

I don't think it's OK when people who have never been members here (Pandora, in this case) and have until then not been involved with the site get hurt and are seen as some kind of collateral damage and nothing to be particularly sorry about. Admit it was mean, sure, apologies, hell no.

There was something nasty about the whole thing that set it apart from most previous dramas. Personally  found the rather merciless riling up of TCO when he returned after his self-imposed ban cruel and unnecessary and something that could have been avoided if the will had been there. 

I'm all for backing up your shit and have flamed and been flamed on more than one occasion in the past but when people's actual real lives are being thrown into the fire for nothing more than some lulz over internet butthurt (because frankly, why else would anyone bother?), there is something wrong.

[odeon]

All I know is that Odeon was great with me throughout the Steve incident. Was clearly sad to be seeing Steve cop so much flack, but made clear he could see my point. I even non-seriously suggested that Steve would be trying to get some of us arrestef for cyber bullying.
Odoen said "he'll have to explain his own behaviour first"

I think Odeons comment about speaking to Les and now becoming morally outraged is very telling.

It might have, had it not been for the fact that I posted about this BEFORE I heard from Les. What pisses me off about how you've handled this, more than anything else, is that you don't see any reason to apologise. Most others involved have examined their actions but you, well, you act like that soldier from my previous post.

Your gut reaction throughout this whole mess has been to constantly shift blame and move goalposts, never to examine if there might have been something YOU could have done better or differently.

[odeon]

All of this is getting really fucking ridiculous.

What strikes me as odd, is that when Les was attacking Adam and I in a really disgusting and low manner, simply because we called him a dumbass in a silly argument over Shleed, odeon didn't day a word.  I know it escalated and I said awful things myself but at the start, we were just using playground insults like dumbass and old man etc.  Les, however, wrote paragraphs of poisonous essays about Adam being trans and about his OCD - trying to trigger it.  Yet odeon was completely fine with this.  Before you mention us calling him a paedophile and me attacking his kids, that was bad yes but it only happened when things started to escalate.

Now suddenly, Butterflies calls Pandora "rancid" by proxy and she's the devil. 

Something is clearly wrong here.  Or maybe it's just that older people back older people here and vice versa with us young ones.  It was something I noticed a while ago.

Yup.

I'm in three minds about Odeons behaviour.
I think he's either trying to show Les how morally outraged he is, in an attempt to win Les' favour and get him to return to the site.
Or, he really is a sanctimonious old windbag, who has only appeared cool because he doesn't have a clue about the insults that are really flying about this site. If he did, he'd probably shut the site.
Or, he's actually very easily suggestable, and Les has managed to convince him that he really is morally outraged.

Me, I think we all know you aren't this stupid.

['andersom']

Yeah I really don't get what's so bad about the Rancid insult

Way worse things are said on this site

Also I don't think Butterflies ever plays the innocent little me thing - hasn't she said plenty of times herself that she;s acted badly

Yes. I'm the first to admit that I'm not a well behaved person, either here, or in RL.

I'm guilty of many things, but pretending I'm an angel isn't one of them.

You have said you behaved badly, but, you are quick in adding a but (he did .......)
Even when all added after the but is true, when added after a but, in many cases, it comes across as making what was said before the but less important, or even less true.

 

['Butterflies']

Actually I've been talking to Sir Les as well as reading the old threads and realised that I should have posted more about all this earlier. Instead I was pissed off by what you did and remained mostly silent. Not completely, as you will note if you actually bother to read my older posts, so you are just wrong on this one.

Isolated, a lot of the TCO/Pandora stuff would not have merited a response. Put in context, however, I think this particular drama has developed in directions that I dislike enough to speak out. I have said more than once that I'm not always consistent--very few are--but I try to learn from my mistakes and not do the same ones more than once. So yes, I'm pretty sure there are times in the past when I should have reacted but for various reasons didn't.

But that's not how I would like to excuse myself if I stay silent or look the other way when I see something I think is wrong. Would you?

Can you please clarify what exactly it is that you think is so wrong that you need to speak out?  I am not being funny or facetious i simply am unclear if it is the insult she used,  or who she insulted,  or the fb thing,  or the TCO thing in general that has caused this reaction?   I don't intend to start going around getting into fights and slanging matches but would just like to know in case i ever do?

I don't think it's OK when people who have never been members here (Pandora, in this case) and have until then not been involved with the site get hurt and are seen as some kind of collateral damage and nothing to be particularly sorry about. Admit it was mean, sure, apologies, hell no.

There was something nasty about the whole thing that set it apart from most previous dramas. Personally  found the rather merciless riling up of TCO when he returned after his self-imposed ban cruel and unnecessary and something that could have been avoided if the will had been there. 

I'm all for backing up your shit and have flamed and been flamed on more than one occasion in the past but when people's actual real lives are being thrown into the fire for nothing more than some lulz over internet butthurt (because frankly, why else would anyone bother?), there is something wrong.

I really don't want to start this all up again, just as it seems to be dying, but everyone, including me, agrees that what I said to Steve about Pandora, before she became involved was wrong. It appears to be over though. In fact, it happened a couple of months ago, and everyone other than you, appears to have moved on. Les has moved on from there.
Why would I want to apologize to her now? I dislike her, and we ended up getting involved in a fight.
I've seen some real nasty shit be said about Pentys family, far worse than anything that has been said about Pandora, some of it probably by me, but I don't see anyone being expected to apologize to him over it.

[odeon]

All of this is getting really fucking ridiculous.

What strikes me as odd, is that when Les was attacking Adam and I in a really disgusting and low manner, simply because we called him a dumbass in a silly argument over Shleed, odeon didn't day a word.  I know it escalated and I said awful things myself but at the start, we were just using playground insults like dumbass and old man etc.  Les, however, wrote paragraphs of poisonous essays about Adam being trans and about his OCD - trying to trigger it.  Yet odeon was completely fine with this.  Before you mention us calling him a paedophile and me attacking his kids, that was bad yes but it only happened when things started to escalate.

Now suddenly, Butterflies calls Pandora "rancid" by proxy and she's the devil. 

Something is clearly wrong here.  Or maybe it's just that older people back older people here and vice versa with us young ones.  It was something I noticed a while ago.

Ah, the two wrongs DOES make a right defence. Well done, Binty.

But seriously, folks, if you honestly think this is all about that "rancid" comment, I'm not surprised how what I'm saying seems to go straight over your heads.

[odeon]

Yeah I really don't get what's so bad about the Rancid insult

Way worse things are said on this site

Also I don't think Butterflies ever plays the innocent little me thing - hasn't she said plenty of times herself that she;s acted badly

Yes. I'm the first to admit that I'm not a well behaved person, either here, or in RL.

I'm guilty of many things, but pretending I'm an angel isn't one of them.

You have said you behaved badly, but, you are quick in adding a but (he did .......)
Even when all added after the but is true, when added after a but, in many cases, it comes across as making what was said before the but less important, or even less true.

It's a clever technique, isn't it?

['andersom']

I kept out of this discussion mostly, for various reasons.

Think this discussion needs to be broader than just the TCO thing, if it needs to be discussed wider.

To find topics to include, one could search the posts of EBM. He is a very good observer, and he acts on it. He has made posts with the gist of "Not Cool" more than once. That would be a good way to find things to broaden this discussion.

['Butterflies']

All I know is that Odeon was great with me throughout the Steve incident. Was clearly sad to be seeing Steve cop so much flack, but made clear he could see my point. I even non-seriously suggested that Steve would be trying to get some of us arrestef for cyber bullying.
Odoen said "he'll have to explain his own behaviour first"

I think Odeons comment about speaking to Les and now becoming morally outraged is very telling.

It might have, had it not been for the fact that I posted about this BEFORE I heard from Les. What pisses me off about how you've handled this, more than anything else, is that you don't see any reason to apologise. Most others involved have examined their actions but you, well, you act like that soldier from my previous post.

Your gut reaction throughout this whole mess has been to constantly shift blame and move goalposts, never to examine if there might have been something YOU could have done better or differently.

I think maybe we are different types of people. Everything I do could be done better. I don't strive to handle things perfectly.

Yes. I could have kept out of the Steve argument. If I had done that, the following stuff might not have happened.
I handled this as I did, and there's nothing that can be done about it now. The only part of this I would have done differently in hindsight is to have not mentioned Pandora while I was still only fighting Steve.

['Butterflies']

I kept out of this discussion mostly, for various reasons.

Think this discussion needs to be broader than just the TCO thing, if it needs to be discussed wider.

To find topics to include, one could search the posts of EBM. He is a very good observer, and he acts on it. He has made posts with the gist of "Not Cool" more than once. That would be a good way to find things to broaden this discussion.

And why do you feel this discussion needs to be broadened?

[odeon]

Actually I've been talking to Sir Les as well as reading the old threads and realised that I should have posted more about all this earlier. Instead I was pissed off by what you did and remained mostly silent. Not completely, as you will note if you actually bother to read my older posts, so you are just wrong on this one.

Isolated, a lot of the TCO/Pandora stuff would not have merited a response. Put in context, however, I think this particular drama has developed in directions that I dislike enough to speak out. I have said more than once that I'm not always consistent--very few are--but I try to learn from my mistakes and not do the same ones more than once. So yes, I'm pretty sure there are times in the past when I should have reacted but for various reasons didn't.

But that's not how I would like to excuse myself if I stay silent or look the other way when I see something I think is wrong. Would you?

Can you please clarify what exactly it is that you think is so wrong that you need to speak out?  I am not being funny or facetious i simply am unclear if it is the insult she used,  or who she insulted,  or the fb thing,  or the TCO thing in general that has caused this reaction?   I don't intend to start going around getting into fights and slanging matches but would just like to know in case i ever do?

I don't think it's OK when people who have never been members here (Pandora, in this case) and have until then not been involved with the site get hurt and are seen as some kind of collateral damage and nothing to be particularly sorry about. Admit it was mean, sure, apologies, hell no.

There was something nasty about the whole thing that set it apart from most previous dramas. Personally  found the rather merciless riling up of TCO when he returned after his self-imposed ban cruel and unnecessary and something that could have been avoided if the will had been there. 

I'm all for backing up your shit and have flamed and been flamed on more than one occasion in the past but when people's actual real lives are being thrown into the fire for nothing more than some lulz over internet butthurt (because frankly, why else would anyone bother?), there is something wrong.

I really don't want to start this all up again, just as it seems to be dying, but everyone, including me, agrees that what I said to Steve about Pandora, before she became involved was wrong. It appears to be over though. In fact, it happened a couple of months ago, and everyone other than you, appears to have moved on. Les has moved on from there.
Why would I want to apologize to her now? I dislike her, and we ended up getting involved in a fight.
I've seen some real nasty shit be said about Pentys family, far worse than anything that has been said about Pandora, some of it probably by me, but I don't see anyone being expected to apologize to him over it.

You should because unless you think you are without fault, it's the decent thing to do. You were not without blame. Too late for Pandora but if you intend to live among people, it's something people do and a valuable skill.

But it's always about shifting the blame, pointing out how worse things have been said or done by others, always about that "but".

That "but" is largely why this isn't dying so easily. Because it's fucking cowardly and spineless, and it's not what this place should be about.