(Here come some ugly quote pyramids, but I know Butterflies will want to see them)
leejosepho
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject:
PM response to Butterflies:
Note: TallyMan once said stranger things have happened ...
================
re:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts151741-start30.html B: >> Thanks for the link. I found that an interesting thread. To be honest though, I'm not sure why you chose to send it to me.
Me: Simply because you are an LBGT Aspie, as far as I know, and the LGBT subforum needs folks to help hold any potential antagonists in check.
B: >> I have not spent much time in that board, and I would not know what standard of job you've done moderating it ...
Me: So far, I have done almost nothing there other than to try to help BrendaEM with her proposal for a "sticky" there.
B: >> If you are attempting to offer the hand of peace to me, then of course I would be happy to try.
Me: Oh yes, please do!
Me: Peace to you.
================
leejosepho
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject:
PM response #2 to Butterflies:
While leaving the past behind as much as possible and while shifting to focus on principles:
>> To label it hate speech was way way over the top.
In a court of law, you would definitely be completely correct there. A real-life judge would have laughed and thrown that out the window. However, and especially for folks like yourself who have been victims of so-called "hate speech", where should the line be drawn? And, I do not argue that in relation to what you had posted. Rather, I only ask everyone to see the underlying principle and act accordingly:
hate speech = any statement made against or in the face of any group of people
Example:
People who eat chocolate ice cream (the "group") rather than eating vanilla are idiots (the "slam" against the "group").
That is hate speech. So, this kind of edit would be necessary:
"People who eat chocolate ice cream (the "group") rather than eating vanilla are people who prefer chocolate.
End of story, eh?! You can still be you, so to speak, and I can still be me and we can each keep right on doing as we each do ... and in peace.
>> The second issue ... you decided to go with troll ... I joined the site initially to take issue with Parakeet ... by many definitions of the word, I was trolling him, for a day or two.
Yes, and that has since ended and that case is closed ... and in the future, I (or any other moderator, of course) would first come to you privately and discuss before any further action would be taken.
>> The thing is though, how many of us have been guilty using behaviour like that in an argument either on the internet, or in real life?
I certainly have, and I got busted for that and have since stopped just as I would suggest for you or for anyone else, if asked.
>> It does not make everyone who has done it somebody that should be written off as a troll.
Agreed.
>> And lastly ... What I find hard to accept however, is that you seemed to be very quick to clamp down on people who where attacking [other] peoples religious views. If somebody uses a religious view to justify homophobic views, then I want the right to attack those views ...
Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable ...
>> ... and even perhaps those people ...
... attacking the person making the comments is not [acceptable].
>> ... although I understand that attacking the person is maybe not possible.
Yes. So, you make your best effort to practice restraint and the mods will only intervene when necessary.
>> My personal choice would be a board where all people are free to air their views, but those views are their to be attacked.
That is how things are on WP.
>> If that's not possible, then you really need to be more careful about what views you allow on the board.
No, views are certainly not censored here!
>> It is a crap feeling to have views allowed on a board about your sexuality, but know that you'll be in the wrong if you fight back.
Oh no, just do not make attacks on people expressing opposing views.
>> Also, please don't think that I am a strident athiest with a grudge against religion. Perhaps some of the others who joined up at the sime time as me are, but not me. Most of my friends identify as Christian. I do not detest religion. I do detest many religions views on homosexuality.
Understood, and neither am I a zealot.
Hoping to see you around ...
Lee
leejosepho
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:33 pm Post subject:
Next PM to Butterflies:
>> I beg you seriously to avoid ever using that term [hate speech] again without extremely good reason.
Fine.
>> Now, about the moderation thing.
>> I am certainly no racist, but out of curiosity are you saying that if I regularly stated white supremacist views, that I would be entitled to express those views on the board ...
I would initially say yes, of course, as there is certainly nothing even close to any kind of rule prohibiting one's personal "opinion, belief or philosophy". However, and since I know very little about white supremacist views, I would nevertheless caution that any such "view" saying non-whites are scum deserving of eradication from the earth, for example, would likely not be acceptable. That might not actually be true "hate speech", but it certainly does nothing good for any/all of minkind!
>> ... and although people could challenge my views, nobody would be allowed to attack me as a person, or call me a racist?
Anyone attacking you as a person would be approached by a moderator after a moderator had become aware of that personal attack, but I will have to pose your question about "racist" to the other mods and get back to you on that since I presently see "racist" as being essentially the same kind of label as "homophobic". After all, white supremacists actually are racists, are they not?
leejosepho
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:12 am Post subject:
PM from Butterfiles
re: sock puppets
Butterflies wrote:
I won't deny that I may have known one or two of those people, but they were not sockpuppets either. I had my agenda, and they had theirs. For what it's worth, my intention was never to bother anybody else on the site other than Parakeet. It's just a shame you ended up getting drawn in.
I know that when I first joined up a few people thought that me and the other people were all the same person. I can promise you that was not the case, and I am a real person, with all of the good, and the bad aspects of a normal person.
Lorna x
leejosepho
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:16 am Post subject:
PM from Sinsboldly
sinsboldly wrote:
Yeah, we would get raided from time to time by either I2 or ZOMGAspies. It was no joke, they would spam bomb the incoming members and I would have to ban them and clean out the spam - sometimes pages and pages each hand banned and accounts deleted. It took forever, so we just banned them on sight. We called it a 'burn notice' - it is all in the ModLogs if Alex ever lets you see the old ones.
But don't CHAT with them, LeeJosepho. Geeze. It is not like you can win, or anything. Just ban them on sight.
Merle
PS I like your 'mods are maids' sig. line.
leejosepho
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:20 am Post subject:
Whew.
PM to 'keet:
============================
Butterflies has told me she does not have sock puppets even though she does know some of the others who had been acting out a bit here. Overall, I suggest you just let everything lie as at present and not make any attempt to extract any kind of agreement from her about anything. She and I have had a detailed discussion of all matters related to attacks against views versus attacks against people here on WP, your trouble from impostor accounts elsewhere is not a matter for public display here on WP, and you should not be at all surprised if/when Butterflies might next attack your personal "opinion, belief or philosophy" (possibly even by posting to you directly) ... and yet she does understand each of you will be equally subject to WP rules related to attacks against any person or persons.
My fellow: I can be just like you in clenching my teeth on a bone I believe needs to be picked, but now you have the same opportunity to do just as I have often had to do: Drop it, go take a piss on a tree or a hydrant somewhere and then have a seat and get a cup of coffee or whatever and just let everything settle for a while. Please!
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Okay... I have nothing wrong with her having an individual outlook on things, but I had made my warning of submitting the collected evidence conditional upon the fake profiles being removed. If she is willing to remove them, then I will not submit my evidence. However, as of yet, things are still virtually unchanged. I would like her to decide if she is going to approve of the continued attacks of my person or if she actually wants to resolve the matter peacefully. I suppose a response to my question may be in the manner you predict, but I would prefer a "no, I do not approve of that, I want to resolve things rather than dragging them on".
leejosepho wrote:
She is likely going to say something like he has said nothing wrong, and it would then be best for you to just accept that view of hers as her own personal view of things and just let things be just as they are.
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
This is what I just sent to Butterflies:
From: iamnotaparakeet
To: Butterflies
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:31 am
Subject: Simple question
Hi Butterflies,
I'm going to assume your thread was a gesture of diplomatic resolution, however it is obvious enough that AlSwearegen's threads in WP.Net are anything else than that. My question is: do you approve of what AlSwearegen is saying?
============================
leejosepho
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:43 am Post subject:
PM to 'keet:
Quote:
>> if the impostor accounts are not disabled - I'll submit one last message about the subject after I submit the evidence to the FBI, and it will read "Evidence now submitted."
I can only speak to you as a fellow member and not a moderator here, and only as a fellow member do I now tell you this:
If you ever again post anything about any of that anywhere here on WP, I will be shocked if you are not immediately banned.
Please, my fellow, absolutely nothing more about any of that here on WP ...
Joseph Lee
PS: I just could not even possibly have resisted tossing that bit of rhyme in there!
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Okay, I'll just wait on things. I deleted the message I sent her (it was still in the outbox, unread). However, if the impostor accounts are not disabled by Sunday 6pm Central time in the USA, I will be submitting everything to the FBI cyber crime division. I'll stop my replying to their topics until then, at which time - if the impostor accounts are not disabled - I'll submit one last message about the subject after I submit the evidence to the FBI, and it will read "Evidence now submitted." I am so tired of all of this.
leejosepho wrote:
Butterflies has told me she does not have sock puppets even though she does know some of the others who had been acting out a bit here. Overall, I suggest you just let everything lie as at present and not make any attempt to extract any kind of agreement from her about anything. She and I have had a detailed discussion of all matters related to attacks against views versus attacks against people here on WP, you trouble from impostor accounts elsewhere is not a matter for public display here on WP, and you should not be at all surprised if/when Butterflies might next attack your personal "opinion, belief or philosophy" (possibly even by posting to you directly) ... and yet she does understand each of you will be equally subject to WP rules related to attacks against any person or persons.
My fellow: I can be just like you in clenching my teeth on a bone I believe needs to be picked, but now you have the same opportunity to do just as I have often had to do: Drop it, go take a piss on a tree or a hydrant somewhere and then have a seat and get a cup of coffee or whatever and just let everything settle for a while. Please!
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Okay... I have nothing wrong with her having an individual outlook on things, but I had made my warning of submitting the collected evidence conditional upon the fake profiles being removed. If she is willing to remove them, then I will not submit my evidence. However, as of yet, things are still virtually unchanged. I would like her to decide if she is going to approve of the continued attacks of my person or if she actually wants to resolve the matter peacefully. I suppose a response to my question may be in the manner you predict, but I would prefer a "no, I do not approve of that, I want to resolve things rather than dragging them on".
leejosepho wrote:
She is likely going to say something like he has said nothing wrong, and it would then be best for you to just accept that view of hers as her own personal view of things and just let things be just as they are.
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
This is what I just sent to Butterflies:
From: iamnotaparakeet
To: Butterflies
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:31 am
Subject: Simple question
Hi Butterflies,
I'm going to assume your thread was a gesture of diplomatic resolution, however it is obvious enough that AlSwearegen's threads in WP.Net are anything else than that. My question is: do you approve of what AlSwearegen is saying?
leejosepho
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:12 am Post subject:
I hafd suggested to Butterflies that her 'keet-style avatar being changed to something else would be a considerate gesture on her part ...
Butterflies wrote:
I thought my avater was kinda funny but OK, fair enough, it's changed.
Lorna x
leejosepho
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:31 pm Post subject:
PM to 'keet:
==================
@'keet:
I did not say you would be, and you actually likely would not be ... but since I am "taking a break" at the moment and dare not intervene anywhere, please send your question here to Midlife Aspie.
Cool?!
I do not want to violate Alex' trust, and I cannot.could not possibly speak for the mod team anyway.
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
What? Why would I be banned? I am not the one committing the crimes nor any of the spun up things they are accusing me of.
leejosepho wrote:
>> if the impostor accounts are not disabled - I'll submit one last message about the subject after I submit the evidence to the FBI, and it will read "Evidence now submitted."
I can only speak to you as a fellow member and not a moderator here, and only as a fellow member do I now tell you this:
If you ever again post anything about any of that anywhere here on WP, I will be shocked if you are not immediately banned.
Please, my fellow, absolutely nothing more about any of that here on WP ...
Joseph Lee
PS: I just could not even possibly have resisted tossing that bit of rhyme in there!
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Okay, I'll just wait on things. I deleted the message I sent her (it was still in the outbox, unread). However, if the impostor accounts are not disabled by Sunday 6pm Central time in the USA, I will be submitting everything to the FBI cyber crime division. I'll stop my replying to their topics until then, at which time - if the impostor accounts are not disabled - I'll submit one last message about the subject after I submit the evidence to the FBI, and it will read "Evidence now submitted." I am so tired of all of this.
leejosepho wrote:
Butterflies has told me she does not have sock puppets even though she does know some of the others who had been acting out a bit here. Overall, I suggest you just let everything lie as at present and not make any attempt to extract any kind of agreement from her about anything. She and I have had a detailed discussion of all matters related to attacks against views versus attacks against people here on WP, you trouble from impostor accounts elsewhere is not a matter for public display here on WP, and you should not be at all surprised if/when Butterflies might next attack your personal "opinion, belief or philosophy" (possibly even by posting to you directly) ... and yet she does understand each of you will be equally subject to WP rules related to attacks against any person or persons.
My fellow: I can be just like you in clenching my teeth on a bone I believe needs to be picked, but now you have the same opportunity to do just as I have often had to do: Drop it, go take a piss on a tree or a hydrant somewhere and then have a seat and get a cup of coffee or whatever and just let everything settle for a while. Please!
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Okay... I have nothing wrong with her having an individual outlook on things, but I had made my warning of submitting the collected evidence conditional upon the fake profiles being removed. If she is willing to remove them, then I will not submit my evidence. However, as of yet, things are still virtually unchanged. I would like her to decide if she is going to approve of the continued attacks of my person or if she actually wants to resolve the matter peacefully. I suppose a response to my question may be in the manner you predict, but I would prefer a "no, I do not approve of that, I want to resolve things rather than dragging them on".
leejosepho wrote:
She is likely going to say something like he has said nothing wrong, and it would then be best for you to just accept that view of hers as her own personal view of things and just let things be just as they are.
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
This is what I just sent to Butterflies:
From: iamnotaparakeet
To: Butterflies
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:31 am
Subject: Simple question
Hi Butterflies,
I'm going to assume your thread was a gesture of diplomatic resolution, however it is obvious enough that AlSwearegen's threads in WP.Net are anything else than that. My question is: do you approve of what AlSwearegen is saying?
==================
