I call out Les

[Al Swearegen]

Butterflies, I am going to bed but here are a few points of issue to keep you going

I have went to the bother of asking a fair few real life people if they would be happy with you acting the way you are, if they were Pandora. They have been unanimous that they would be disgusted by your behaviour. You could easily back your point though, simply by bringing Pandora to the site to show her everything that has gone on. If you're right, then it won't harm you. She'll be so pleased that you've taken a well-hidden insult about her hygiene, and made sure that everyone on the site is likely to know about it.
So, what are you waiting for? It can only enhance your relationship with her, right? This point is well within your power to prove.
Until then, I will continue to tell you that to use Pandora to score points in a fight is cynical, but to continually drag up a rather degrading insinuation about her lack of feminine hygiene is cruel beyond anything that has been done to her on this site, by me or Steve. Do the decent thing Les and apologize to her.


You claim that this whole argument is you defending Pandora. No right thinking person would ever choose to defend someone in the way you have "defended" Pandora. It seems to me that you are butthurt at me, and are prepared to use a so-called friend to score points.
So I ask myself, why?
I keep coming back to the same conclusion. You appear to like to play the big-man and tell Squid when to apologize, and appear to be happy to see him give you the respect you feel you are due and humbly apologize.
You tried the same thing with me, and I was dismissive of you. Since then you have been determined to drag this on. I think you are butthurt because I didn't give you the respect you seem to think you deserve.
Of course, that is an opinion, and am therefore unable to present "facts" that back my case, before you start another tedious rant at me to "Back my claims"


And my last point is, you question my  "seen the light backflip of epic proportions." There is no backflip. I had no real issue about what I said about Pandora to wind up Steve in a well-hidden post,  and felt no need to apologize.
Now that Pandora has been turned into "big news" by your pretence of defending her, I feel terrible for her. She is being continuously degraded, simply so that you can attempt to make a point. For that, she deserves a hell of a big apology from everyone involved.

Les. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Aha.

Here is what she ACTUALLY thinks (Part of a reply email sent tonight)

> But anyway, I fully agree that you did the right thing in defending me
> against the slurs such as being rancid. {an honest descriptor of what she feels towards you} doesn't even know me -
> she already said she thought I was ugly and then dirty as well. I might not
> be a fashion plate but I do bathe regularly and use deodorant

So. In light of what you wrote above. Let's break this down shall we?

I have went to the bother of asking a fair few real life people if they would be happy with you acting the way you are, if they were Pandora. They have been unanimous that they would be disgusted by your behaviour.

Are your friends Pandora? Do you have a many year relationship with her to base decisions that you make?
I do. I told you she would be ok with this and you chose to not only ignore it but to try to force me into acting in a way that is not in my expectations of how to treat my friend Pandora. It sounds like pure ego tripping "do this now for ME because i demand you should apologise and if you don't , you are X, Y, Z" was any of this what Pandora wanted, or was it what Butterflies wanted?

Why is that?

You could easily back your point though, simply by bringing Pandora to the site to show her everything that has gone on. If you're right, then it won't harm you.

I don't need to though do I Butterflies? She has seen what has been posted. Why does she need to come on the site? Are you silly enough to presume I have any fear or concern that she might? Why is that?

What harm exactly are you talking about and how does it apply?

by the way i have innvited her and i do not think she will come. Even to wait on you and your apology. I don't think she cares enough about you to bother. I can see how this could be true. Can you?

She'll be so pleased that you've taken a well-hidden insult about her hygiene, and made sure that everyone on the site is likely to know about it.

Given her reply, how much do you think this is in any way the slightest consideration to her or me? Come on tell class.

So, what are you waiting for?

Probably for a certain member of this forum to stop issuing pointless and unheeded orders and get over herself. Do you think this is a fair call?

 It can only enhance your relationship with her, right?

Wrong. my relationship with pandora is fine and does not need your seal of approval or for me to jump through your hoops. I need not friendship enhancement nor friendship enhancement advice from you. It is rather silly to imply that i do. isn't it? Why do you suspect that i do or need your advice? You read the status quo rather badly don't you think?

This point is well within your power to prove.

In my power to prove? Again butterflies, get over yourself. Tell me what needs proving.

Until then, I will continue to tell you that to use Pandora to score points in a fight is cynical, but to continually drag up a rather degrading insinuation about her lack of feminine hygiene is cruel beyond anything that has been done to her on this site, by me or Steve.

That time is now. So what exactly are YOU going to do now that the time is upon you?

Do the decent thing Les and apologize to her.

Apologise for what exactly. She appreciates what i have done in acknowledgement of what has been posted. So tell me what I am to apologise for and what it is that is to be made decent by doing so. struggling? Thought you may be.

You claim that this whole argument is you defending Pandora. No right thinking person would ever choose to defend someone in the way you have "defended" Pandora. It seems to me that you are butthurt at me, and are prepared to use a so-called friend to score points.

Really? Interesting. It is quite a presumption.
Either I am not a right thinking person then but have miraculously got it right.
OR
You are simply wrong and have tried second guessing me in the face of me telling you very explicitedly that I know my friends and what would or would not be appreciated and that my defending Pandora would be appreciated and YOU chose to cast aside this inferring I either was lying or had no sound understanding of my friends values.

I think the second option is a bit more compelling.

So I guess the question of why ignore what I had said over and over to you and carry on like you have with making this callout in the first instance? Do you have a clue? Wanna share?

BTW so-called friend seems very much like appreciative friend and nothing "so-called" about it. Why is this/ Why did you use this term and the implications surrounding it? Sounds a bit silly, in light of things now, huh?

So I ask myself, why?
I keep coming back to the same conclusion. You appear to like to play the big-man and tell Squid when to apologize, and appear to be happy to see him give you the respect you feel you are due and humbly apologize.
You tried the same thing with me, and I was dismissive of you. Since then you have been determined to drag this on. I think you are butthurt because I didn't give you the respect you seem to think you deserve.

Well as you seem to be wrong about pretty much everything as far as i see, I can see nothing less in this than a whine. It sounds kind of 'You dragged this out too long. You should have stopped but you didn't. you feel like a big man now Les?  " Sounds like butthurt to me. Could be wrong and it is just my opinion.

The truth? No I think this is just another callout like many callouts. I had an issue with you and i took it up with you. I saw you make a lot of dubious claims and i called you on them. I have no idea why you bring Squiddy into this/ Seems a little silly but no sillier than the claim you made that I had said i tried to score points in respect to Pandora. I believe that was in this very superflous and silly callout that you made.

Of course, that is an opinion, and am therefore unable to present "facts" that back my case, before you start another tedious rant at me to "Back my claims"

Indeed, why start making an actual case for anything you said. You have got pretty much everything else wrong on this callout so far. Haven't you Butterflies?

And my last point is, you question my  "seen the light backflip of epic proportions." There is no backflip. I had no real issue about what I said about Pandora to wind up Steve in a well-hidden post,  and felt no need to apologize.

Right.

Now that Pandora has been turned into "big news" by your pretence of defending her, I feel terrible for her. She is being continuously degraded, simply so that you can attempt to make a point. For that, she deserves a hell of a big apology from everyone involved.

It appears not afterall regardless of your thoughts on this. You interpret it the same way as i do?

Les. You should be ashamed of yourself.

For what exactly? She has no issue with what I have done. Tell me and everyone viewing your public announcement what I have to feel ashamed about. No?


Take your time with this one Butterflies.

The monumental fail in this callout may take a while to appreciate. I told you from the very first couple of responses in this callout that it was an abject failure didn't i. You should have taken note. But then you should have taken note when i expressed that i knew my friend and that you did not.

Have fun ....or whatever

['Butterflies']

I'm guessing that by telling you "I might not be a fashion plate," she is admitting that she is not great looking. Truth is, I don't have a clue what she looks like, as you may already know.

If someone made a well-hidden dig at my looks, I would not want that dig to be promoted to headline news on the site, and I think I look OK. If there were other negative connotations to the insult, I certainly would not want it promoted to headline news on the site.

Probably because of you, a jibe that was simply made towards Steve to get a reaction, has now been shown to his partner. Do you think she is a happier person now that she knows that someone on a website has made a jibe about her looks?

I made a jibe. It was mean.
You have been responsible for making that jibe grow legs, to the extent that it has now had some kind of impact, no matter how possibly small, on a womans life.
I would not see your actions as the actions of a friend.

[Al Swearegen]

I'm guessing that by telling you "I might not be a fashion plate," she is admitting that she is not great looking. Truth is, I don't have a clue what she looks like, as you may already know.

If someone made a well-hidden dig at my looks, I would not want that dig to be promoted to headline news on the site, and I think I look OK. If there were other negative connotations to the insult, I certainly would not want it promoted to headline news on the site.

Probably because of you, a jibe that was simply made towards Steve to get a reaction, has now been shown to his partner. Do you think she is a happier person now that she knows that someone on a website has made a jibe about her looks?

I made a jibe. It was mean.
You have been responsible for making that jibe grow legs, to the extent that it has now had some kind of impact, no matter how possibly small, on a womans life.
I would not see your actions as the actions of a friend.

Is this a way of saying do i think that defending my friend and pointing out the slight instead of letting it be buried and in getting recognition and an apology for it is a bad thing, then the answer is, No.
If you are asking whether I think Pandora appreciates me defending this or not, then Yes I think she does and she knows her mind well enough to say she does.
If this is askling whether this "growing legs" has the impact you are trying so desperately to attach to it, then no.
If you are asking whether what you did was worse than my defence of it, then both Pandora and i agree what you did was worse.
If what you are asking is whether she really appreciates it. then the answer is yes.
If what you are asking is whether this would all be so much easier for butterflies if it did anything than back what I have said all along that she chose to ignore then...well you know the answer here.

['Butterflies']

There's not really all that much more that I can say. I can't prove that Pandora is unhappy to have a jibe dredged up and made big news.

I know that I would hate to be defended in the way you have defended Pandora, and that the people I have asked, of different ages, backgrounds, and looks think it would be terrible to be defended in the way that you have defended Pandora.

You are happy with how you claim to have defended her, and are convinced that you are right. Nothing I say will change your mind.

This is the way you choose to defend your friends. For that reason, I am relieved we are not friends.

[Al Swearegen]

There's not really all that much more that I can say. I can't prove that Pandora is unhappy to have a jibe dredged up and made big news.

I know that I would hate to be defended in the way you have defended Pandora, and that the people I have asked, of different ages, backgrounds, and looks think it would be terrible to be defended in the way that you have defended Pandora.

You are happy with how you claim to have defended her, and are convinced that you are right. Nothing I say will change your mind.

This is the way you choose to defend your friends. For that reason, I am relieved we are not friends.

The fact is though isn't it, that regardless of what you and your friends thought or think, you took the presumptous step of second guessing what would be an act of friendship[ through me to a friend. I have ratified that position many times and you made this callout all on the basis of that want to second guess.
Now it has clearly been shown to you that you were wrong. nothing more to it than you were wrong. You did not know her and I did and I acted in accordance of the values I know she has and you second guessed that.
You now hang on to "You are happy with how you claim to have defended her, and are convinced that you are right. Nothing I say will change your mind." I did not claim did I? IO simply did. It is not up for question at all. It was also appreciated by the one person it ought to matter to.
So how much, in light of this, is your second guessing, what people ,that are not Pandora, "research", or callout worth?
Not much?

['Butterflies']

I have made my points, and I have listened to yours.

You can choose to accept my points, or you can choose not to.

I have indulged you for 3 days now in this argument, and I think we understand each others position.

It is like being involved in a bad essay writing contest, and I have no patience to either read yours or to write my own anymore.
You have had 3 days to convince me of your point, and you haven't. I have had 3 days to convince you of my point, and I haven't.

[Al Swearegen]

I have made my points, and I have listened to yours.

You can choose to accept my points, or you can choose not to.

I have indulged you for 3 days now in this argument, and I think we understand each others position.

It is like being involved in a bad essay writing contest, and I have no patience to either read yours or to write my own anymore.
You have had 3 days to convince me of your point, and you haven't. I have had 3 days to convince you of my point, and I haven't.

That is because your points have basically all been disproven and whittled away.

What exactly are points?

I have to apologise to Pandora?

That Pandora would hate what I did to her?

That I am a "so-called" friend for my actions?

That I claimed that I was point scoring? (A claim you actually made and not me)

No, all of these things have been shown to be false.

Maybe we can revisit your very own Strawman argument where after accusing me of such, you then sort to substitute the mean and intend of the original slur to give it more weight and had this trolling tactic exposed? No? No point here either.

Funnily in doing so too, creating a Strawman argument after accusing me of doing do, you showed hypocrisy, another claim you levelled against me.

Maybe your point is that there is a necessity for me to force Pandora here for your royal "handhale and apology". That was amoung the sillier things you have written the last 3 days but not the worst.

Maybe your point was this mysterious Strawman argument of mine that you said was a Strawman argument, and then not only a strawman argument, but a weak one, and then designated it as the makings of a strawman argument, and then sought to distance yourself from it entirely by saying that I had stopped "doing it', and you had covered it already.
Just so you no doubt know. A strawman argument is or isn't. The makings of a strawman argument  is neither here nor there. It either is or is not. It either has all proponents of the Strawman arguments and is therefore identifiable or it is not. There is no, this is a half-straw man argument or this is a strawman argument if you do not consider this part. It is or it is not.
It was either a strawman argument. A weak Strawman argument or not. There is no beginning of. It makes no sense.

This whole thread was the manufacturiung of someone who after thoroughly disclaiming any reason to feel bad for what she did, suddenly embraced it and not only embrace it but decided to try to allude to a greater sense of support than me in their actions against Pandora. It was a cheap bait and switch tactic. As poor as your own Strawman argument and as insincere.

The only point which you could possibly own, and that would be irrefutable, is that you would not like me to defend you. There is not anything to fear here.

So make a point and tell us why it is callout worthy. Tell us why you became Pandora's public defemnder in the manner you did and inform us why you think, in light of this post, we ought to see merit in it.

['Butterflies']

I'm sure that what you have written is very interesting, but I have no interest in reading through it, or writing another essay.

I'm sorry. I've made my points, and I've read as much of your essays as I can be bothered reading.

After 3 days of stalemate, I really don't think we are going to find agreement now.

[Al Swearegen]

Interesting? No just very damning on your credibility and showing exactly how non0existent your points that you allude to havingmade are. Ignore all you wish. Was alays your option. Can't back a claim? Fine with me.

['Butterflies']

I've spent 3 days explaining the same POV over and over again.

If anybody who I can be bothered talking to would like me to clarify any point that I have made, or explain any of my points of view on this argument , then I will be happy to oblige them.

You really are just totally boring now Les.

[Al Swearegen]

I've spent 3 days explaining the same POV over and over again.

If anybody who I can be bothered talking to would like me to clarify any point that I have made, or explain any of my points of view on this argument , then I will be happy to oblige them.

You really are just totally boring now Les.

You have spent three days getting your points disproven Butterflies.

You are now whining Butterflies.

Your inability to entertain what I wrote above which shows that your points have all been disproven and your tactics denounced and your credibility and intent rather questionable, is your option.

Between whining and backing a claim, I know what I would be doing in a callout, but your call.

['Butterflies']

I'm not whining in the slightest. I'm just not interested in continuing with your essay contest. I will not convince you of my POV, and am not likely to be convinced by yours.

I really have no interest in proving or disproving any more points. You are too boring.

I would say that the longer you try and prolong this, the harder it is for you to make any claim that you are doing this for anybodys benefit, other than your own.

[Al Swearegen]

I'm not whining in the slightest. I'm just not interested in continuing with your essay contest. I will not convince you of my POV, and am not likely to be convinced by yours.

I really have no interest in proving or disproving any more points. You are too boring.

I would say that the longer you try and prolong this, the harder it is for you to make any claim that you are doing this for anybodys benefit, other than your own.

Your point of views, or rather claims, have all been denounced except of course for the 'I would not ant you defending me" (which has been covered in that post you do not want to read for some reason) so there really is not much in the way of points at all is there?

Or is there?

['Butterflies']

You have probably replied to all of my claims. That certainly doesn't mean that you were right.

I continue to hold the view that I have held throughout this argument.

In real life, when I argue, I do it because I feel that my view is right, and theirs is wrong. I hope to convince them that they are wrong, and that I am right.
Neither of us will convince the other that they are wrong, so it really is completely pointless now.




However. If almost anybody else sees anything that they would like to discuss with me about my POV in this argument, they only need to ask me.

[Al Swearegen]

What exactly are points?

I have to apologise to Pandora?

That Pandora would hate what I did to her?

That I am a "so-called" friend for my actions?

That I claimed that I was point scoring? (A claim you actually made and not me)

No, all of these things have been shown to be false.

Maybe that Panora should be forced to come here for a royal handshake and apology.

What exactly of any weight and "rightness" is your points?