I have become hardcore

[Osensitive1]

people get all "grown-up" when talking about riots. "thats silly. think of the costly destruction"

fuck the costly destruction, if the gvt has it coming, then they have it coming.

But rioters don't destroy the government. They loot and destroy the property and businesses of their neighbors who are in the same position and under the same government as they are.

[midlifeaspie]

people get all "grown-up" when talking about riots. "thats silly. think of the costly destruction"

fuck the costly destruction, if the gvt has it coming, then they have it coming.

But rioters don't destroy the government. They loot and destroy the property and businesses of their neighbors who are in the same position and under the same government as they are.

The pointless part of this is trying to convince someone in Zegh's mindset that "government" is just people.  You can't "destroy" government.  You can only destroy people.  Government can change, and sometimes the catalyst for that change is violence, but in the end you are only hurting people and their property.  I guess you have to decide if the government you are living under is so oppressive that the ends justify the means.  For someone in Libya I will say it probably is.  For Zegh I would say probably not.

None of that changes the fact that rioting does not directly hurt "government", it only hurts yourself and your neighbors.

[ZEGH8578]

dont put words in my mouth.
i didnt say i wanted to destroy governments, and i didnt say i wanted to destroy MY government

libya illustrates exactly what i am refering to

^^^
read that, before putting further words in my mouth. okay?
okay.
now you can put words in my mouth.

oh and i shall retort as well:
it doesnt hurt the government? tell that to gadaffi.
"but zegh, you werent talking about real revolutions that actually overthrew a government! you were talking about how fun it would be to trash and destroy stuff, in norway, just for the fun of it!"
 

[Osensitive1]

Forgot about this one. Was that for me, zeg? Didn't intend to put words in your mouth. Was responding to what you actually said.  'Fuck the destruction, if the government has it coming, they have it coming'. Rioters fuck thy neighbor, and I stand by that statement with no implication of your statement meaning anything other than what it said.

[P7PSP]

I have to post this. Please don't bother rioting around me.

[eris]

I remember, a few years ago after there were riots in my city it smelled like stinkbombs and there was trash everywhere. I do admit the action was rather exciting and it was good to see some people actually care about stuff for a change, but nothing really "happened". Just a bunch of stinkbombs and garbage :S

[ZEGH8578]

jack, no, not directed to you. imo, all revolution begins with riots.
if _all_ disobedience is seen as "immature and childish", then we are doomed.

[midlifeaspie]

if _all_ disobedience is seen as "immature and childish", then we are doomed.

I don't think it was disobedience that was called immature and childish.  I think it was romanticizing disobedience while not participating in any way.

[Scrapheap]

if _all_ disobedience is seen as "immature and childish", then we are doomed.

I don't think it was disobedience that was called immature and childish.  I think it was romanticizing disobedience while not participating in any way.

So you're advocating positive action?? 

[Scrapheap]

people get all "grown-up" when talking about riots. "thats silly. think of the costly destruction"

fuck the costly destruction, if the gvt has it coming, then they have it coming.

But rioters don't destroy the government. They loot and destroy the property and businesses of their neighbors who are in the same position and under the same government as they are.

 

 

This is why rioters need to be trained by proper anarchists like me. I'll teach them to target the government where it hurts.

 

[Scrapheap]

people get all "grown-up" when talking about riots. "thats silly. think of the costly destruction"

fuck the costly destruction, if the gvt has it coming, then they have it coming.

But rioters don't destroy the government. They loot and destroy the property and businesses of their neighbors who are in the same position and under the same government as they are.

The pointless part of this is trying to convince someone in Zegh's mindset that "government" is just people.  You can't "destroy" government.  You can only destroy people.  Government can change, and sometimes the catalyst for that change is violence, but in the end you are only hurting people and their property.  I guess you have to decide if the government you are living under is so oppressive that the ends justify the means.  For someone in Libya I will say it probably is.  For Zegh I would say probably not.

None of that changes the fact that rioting does not directly hurt "government", it only hurts yourself and your neighbors.

There have been a handfull of successful anarchist societies throughout history.

If mankind could get over it's need to worship sociopathic leaders, perhaps we could all live in an Anarcho-Syndicalist Utopia (well, the closest thing that there humanly can be to utopia).

[Scrapheap]

I remember, a few years ago after there were riots in my city it smelled like stinkbombs and there was trash everywhere. I do admit the action was rather exciting and it was good to see some people actually care about stuff for a change, but nothing really "happened". Just a bunch of stinkbombs and garbage :S

These brave young souls need positive direction! 

[Osensitive1]

people get all "grown-up" when talking about riots. "thats silly. think of the costly destruction"

fuck the costly destruction, if the gvt has it coming, then they have it coming.

But rioters don't destroy the government. They loot and destroy the property and businesses of their neighbors who are in the same position and under the same government as they are.

 

 

This is why rioters need to be trained by proper anarchists like me. I'll teach them to target the government where it hurts.

 

If the LA rioters had only targeted police property it would have been viewed much differently. Riots are Angry violent mass hysteria with no plan; trained people don't have the same mindset and wouldn't consider them rioters. .

[P7PSP]

There have been a handfull of successful anarchist societies throughout history.

If mankind could get over it's need to worship sociopathic leaders, perhaps we could all live in an Anarcho-Syndicalist Utopia (well, the closest thing that there humanly can be to utopia).

Why are they not thriving now if anarchism is capable of success?
How well did such disorganized groups compete against tighter organized neighbors?

It is in mankind's nature to compete for water, arable land, prime fishing territory, valuable ores etc. You can try to pick this apart by pointing out that the Apache didn't care about mining gold in the 1840s - 1890s but that did not relieve them of the need to compete with, get the hell out, die, or surrender to, white settlers that wanted that gold, copper etc in their territory. No amount of proclaiming "But we are an anarcho syndicalist cooperative" would have changed the outcome there.

As for Josiah Warren asserting that the value of an item ought to be commiserate with the amount of labor required to produce it rather than perceived market value - tell me again why diamonds and gold sell for so much if Josiah was right. People voting with their wallets have rendered his assertions moot. Saying otherwise is coulda, shoulda, woulda pie in the sky, of no more practical value than saying "Help me Jesus" when the SHTF.

People tend to compete more effectively as an organized unit of 30 or 40 than as a set of 100 randomly thrown together individuals. That is why the USMC trained you the way they did and why the Bolsheviks kicked the anarchists ass in the consolidation/mop up phase of the civil war that followed the October revolution.

[Scrapheap]

There have been a handfull of successful anarchist societies throughout history.

If mankind could get over it's need to worship sociopathic leaders, perhaps we could all live in an Anarcho-Syndicalist Utopia (well, the closest thing that there humanly can be to utopia).

Why are they not thriving now if anarchism is capable of success?
How well did such disorganized groups compete against tighter organized neighbors?

It is in mankind's nature to compete for water, arable land, prime fishing territory, valuable ores etc. You can try to pick this apart by pointing out that the Apache didn't care about mining gold in the 1840s - 1890s but that did not relieve them of the need to compete with, get the hell out, die, or surrender to, white settlers that wanted that gold, copper etc in their territory. No amount of proclaiming "But we are an anarcho syndicalist cooperative" would have changed the outcome there.

As for Josiah Warren asserting that the value of an item ought to be commiserate with the amount of labor required to produce it rather than perceived market value - tell me again why diamonds and gold sell for so much if Josiah was right. People voting with their wallets have rendered his assertions moot. Saying otherwise is coulda, shoulda, woulda pie in the sky, of no more practical value than saying "Help me Jesus" when the SHTF.

People tend to compete more effectively as an organized unit of 30 or 40 than as a set of 100 randomly thrown together individuals. That is why the USMC trained you the way they did and why the Bolsheviks kicked the anarchists ass in the consolidation/mop up phase of the civil war that followed the October revolution.

I thought that I answered most of this in my second line. The problem is human nature itsself. We share common ancestory with the chimpanzee and inheret all that behavioral baggage. The inherited propenisty to worship tyrants has led to thousands of wars that had nothing to do with fighting over resources. Of course the more organized and violence prone societies will dominate. Is that what you're advocating? Is a Nietzsche-esque, Social-Darwinist society your ideal? It might end up dominating it's neighbors, but it would hardly be a pleasant place to live. Step out of line and you get a visit from the Gestapo.

As to Josiah Warren, I believe that the labor principle only applies to goods that aren't in limited supply. One big exception to this though, that's of course, Oil.