How are you feeling right now? (Pt 2)

[Gopher Gary]

Why, what happened to your face gopher boy?

I didn't say I smell badly. My nose is fine. 

[Lestat]

Not what I meant fur face I meant if you only smell bad, where did the ugly mug go? did you lose your face in an accident or peel it off and leave behind a bare, fleshless rodent-skull?

Because if you only smell bad that means you somehow stopped looking like a luke-warm turd also:P

[Gopher Gary]

I'm cute as a button and my sweet furry face inspires adoration. 

[Walkie]

I'm more interested in fending for myself than other people, mainly because other people are generally so closed off and don't want to look for any answers. They like complaining for the sake of it and I don't like it. I like listening to other people who provide me answers and information (to a degree, I have my own cognitive dissonance too) because if I try to teach anyone any shortcuts, they think I am immoral. Life, right and wrong are so much more than just the rigid set of morals that some people stick to. Especially people who are walked over by other people. It also undermines trauma by different people because people determine what subjects (perhaps such as death) would traumatise a person more than another subject (like being bullied at school), so that person would get a lot more sympathy when someone close to them had died, even if they didn't care for them all that much. I know my examples aren't exactly based on morals, but it's what I'm trying to get at. People rate things by value rigidly. They don't base it on individual wants and values, but what is generally accepted.

Very well put. 

I think that maybe all autistic people have a similar experience.I mean unconventional value systems, and feeling the "wrong" feelings in  the "wrong" circumstances. I tend to be a lot more upset by seeming a close friend suffering than by their death, and I'm not at all affected by the death of family members , not unless i was close to them, in spirit, not merely some kind of irritating adjunct to their life . I feel rather gulity for accepting the sympathy people offer under those circumstances. And I rarely talk about things that really do hurt, because i don't expect any sympathy there, but rather (as has all-too-often occurred) trivialisation of the thing by comparison with all those "worse" things that might have happened to me, and that did happen to other people.

Besides, when i was a little kid, I was quite certain that my feelings were unimportant, whereas other people's feelings were crucially important. I got that idea because that's the way people talked and acted. I didn't resent that, just uncritically accepted that as a fact, the way small children do. That underlying assumption has  affected the way I live my life in all sorts of ways. Eg. i was totally willing to make like a doormat in some situations, until i sussed that  the doormat dynamic was bad for all concerned  not just the doormat.

Now, at the grand age of 58 I've finally got it through my thick  skull that my feelings actually do matter, just as much as other peoples ' do . I haven't finished figuring out what , exactly, I should do about that, though?.

['andersom']

Often my feelings (emotions) come with a massive delay.  They are not something I can use to communicate. And when things are though, hard or need all my attention I don't seem to have energy left for emotions.

Makes it hard when others need emotions for their communication. Have been misunderstood more than once because of not being emotional at the 'right' moment.

[Walkie]

Often my feelings (emotions) come with a massive delay.  They are not something I can use to communicate. And when things are though, hard or need all my attention I don't seem to have energy left for emotions.

Makes it hard when others need emotions for their communication. Have been misunderstood more than once because of not being emotional at the 'right' moment.

Same, ofc (I'm  pretty sure that's a normal  autism thing)

A close friend used to marvel at how easily i could detach myself from my emotions. That was 20-odd years ago before Asperger's was part of the collective consciousness, and it was such second nature to me, I'd never thought about it before.   He was quite unusual in that he  realised  that I actually had emotions, and unique in displaying an interest in the way my mind worked. So that got me thinking about it, and - a bit later- comparing notes with other spazzes.

It can be very useful to distance oneself from one's emotions ofc. Like you said, Hyke, that enables you to concentrate on the task-in-hand, and deal with the emotions later on...preferably alone.  So  I've tended to think it has something to do with staying in contol. On the other hand, sometimes an instantaneous emotional reponse is exactly what a situation calls for, but that's not somethinhg that I'm even able to offer.    Under stressful or highly demanding situations,  I don't even know what I'm feeling. I might as well be a robot. The feelings do come through eventually, but after, as you say "a massive delay".

I thought that emotional vanishing act  was some sort of psychic defense mechanism for a time, until i noticed that some of those situations were in no way emotionally threatening, not by any stretch., and that it wasn't just my emotions vanishing but a very large part of my consciousness along with them, including - often highly inconveniently - my episodic memory and almost my entire sense of "self".

After much reflection, and note-comparing , it came to me that it's basically just another of my cognitive juggling tricks. I cannot multi-process to anything like a normal degree, so I do tend to automatically switch off whole areas of perception when not required, so as to focus on the task-in-hand.  eg I rarely notice my surroundings at all when walking down the street, cos i'm focussed on getting from A to B. and when i do notice my surroundings, I unwittingly grind to halt. Similarly, I can become functionally deaf, when busy at the PC, or reading a book. Obviously (now that  I actually think about it) the emotional processing is just another of those things that automatically switches out when my brain is otherwise engaged, and it happens because the situation is cognitively demanding, not because it's emotionally demanding.  Emotionally demanding situations have a greater chance of breaking through the barrier, ofc; thpugh actually, I can, and most often do , detach myself, anyway, and save the emotions for later.  It's just not always automatic.

Think you might have something similar going on?

['andersom']

Very similar to what you describe.

When everything is calm and not needing thinking focus I may sometimes have emotions right at the moment they stem from. Like when my father died. All things that needed taking care of had been done. The suffering was under  control, was ready. We were all relaxed about what was going to happen. There was no pressure at all. One of the few times in life I did not need that detachement.

So he died and the relief of the ordeal being over, the sadness of him and my mother taking leave, the realising how my mother was in agony was all there right at that moment. And it was fine.

I was not sad that he is dead I think. But I do miss him badly now and then, triggered by a thing I would want to share or something funny happening. And that most of the time makes me smile.

But most of the time emotions are not there at the time they stem from. And it sucks when even ASD professionals read that as not giving a shit, when what I am doing is giving a whole lot, just to keep things safe. So, without emotions present.

And yes, I do think that the delay of emotions that way is known to a lot of people on the spectrum.

['andersom']

And indeed, it is not just emotions vanishing. It's focusing on what is important there and then, utterly rational. And the rest is not important. It's no active blocking of the rest. But hypertfocus on the important things, I think. The rest will come when there is time and energy for that.

['andersom']

Lol, reminds me, few years ago, cycling with kid, I made a mistake, causing us to fall.

So, I got her off the street, checked if she was needing immediate help. All seemed OK. I started pulling bikes from the street. Then carefully picking up broken pieces.

Kid was angry, screaming and yelling at me. I turned to her, said I knew she was ok for now and safely off the street. That I was going to pick up the stuff that could cause another accident, when left on the street. After that I would be ready for the emotional raging of hers, because it was my fault indeed.  But not now, because it was not safe.

Very funny. She said she had been absolutely livid at my calm behaviour, and not understanding at all how I could ignore her in that state. That she was glad I had explained it all, because it made sense.
She could laugh at the whole thing afterwards.

[Walkie]

But most of the time emotions are not there at the time they stem from. And it sucks when even ASD professionals read that as not giving a shit, when what I am doing is giving a whole lot, just to keep things safe. So, without emotions present.

That's why I have precious little confidence in ASD professionals , with a few rare excep[tions.  It's known that ASD is a neurol;ogical thing, not a mental illness, and yet still think of it as if it's a mental illness, or as if you have comprehension issues.  They think  if the autistic person only understood the importance of certain things, then they would act appropriately. That's true of only a very limited range of things. In most cases , I think,  we know very well why an NT gives certain things high priority, but then we only have so many spoons. so, with the best will in the world, and the best comprehension in the world,  some things are gonna drop off that priority list, no helping it.  And since we're the ones living our lives, it makles sense for us to be the ones who decide which things should have such high priority that we obsess about them all the time for fear of otherwise forgetting 'em.  And- unless our livelihood  depends on it- it's not likely to be straightening otr necktie and combing our hair, is it?

Personall,y I find that kind of thinking  patronising and  offensive . I'd love to paralyse both legs,(temporarily. I'm just not that nasty)  then explain to them ad nauseum the importance of using your feet, see if that helps them to walk. 

["couldbecousin"]

But most of the time emotions are not there at the time they stem from. And it sucks when even ASD professionals read that as not giving a shit, when what I am doing is giving a whole lot, just to keep things safe. So, without emotions present.

And yes, I do think that the delay of emotions that way is known to a lot of people on the spectrum.

  I don't get sad about stuff that's "supposed to" make me sad, like natural disasters, 9/11, etc.
  Even deaths that should affect me.  But the right music will enable me to feel something. 

[Walkie]

But most of the time emotions are not there at the time they stem from. And it sucks when even ASD professionals read that as not giving a shit, when what I am doing is giving a whole lot, just to keep things safe. So, without emotions present.

And yes, I do think that the delay of emotions that way is known to a lot of people on the spectrum.

  I don't get sad about stuff that's "supposed to" make me sad, like natural disasters, 9/11, etc.
  Even deaths that should affect me.  But the right music will enable me to feel something. 

I suspect that mostly comes down to us being more honest than NTs.  It's well known that you have to present big events like 9/11 from a personal , more  "human " perspective, before they rreally get to people emotionally. You ned to zero in on one individual and tell his sttory in such a way that the audience feels they know that individual, and care what happens to him.

An NT will often get the intellectual idea that he ought to care, notice that he doesn't, then fix that for himself by telling himself a bunch of sad stories. And if that doesn't work, he'll fake it.

After decades of fascination with people , both spazz and NT, and trying to understand how their minds work, I'm pretty confident that NTs are really no different from you and I, emotionally speaking, they just tweak themselves in the interests of conformity. And so would I, probably,  If I hadn't been blessed with a spazz brain, because conformity pressure can be crushing. As a kid , i would have done almost anything to escape that awful pressure, but I just didn't know how to make myself normal, so I remained my natural self by default.  Thankfully

["couldbecousin"]

But most of the time emotions are not there at the time they stem from. And it sucks when even ASD professionals read that as not giving a shit, when what I am doing is giving a whole lot, just to keep things safe. So, without emotions present.

And yes, I do think that the delay of emotions that way is known to a lot of people on the spectrum.

  I don't get sad about stuff that's "supposed to" make me sad, like natural disasters, 9/11, etc.
  Even deaths that should affect me.  But the right music will enable me to feel something. 

I suspect that mostly comes down to us being more honest than NTs.  It's well known that you have to p[resent big events like 9/11 from a personal , more  "human " perspective, before they rreally get to people emotionally. You ned to zero in on one individual and tell his sttory in such a way that the audience feels they know that individual, and care what happens to him.

An NT will often get the intellectual idea that he ought to care, notice that he doesn't, then fix that for himself by telling himself a bunch of sad stories. And if that doesn't work, he'll fake it.

After decades of fascination with people , both spazz and NT, and trying to understand how their minds work, I'm pretty confident that NTs are really no different from you and I, emotionally speaking, they just tweak themselves in the interests of conformity. And so would I, probably,  If I hadn't been blessed with a spazz brain, because conformity pressure can be crushing. As a kid , i would have done almost anything to escape that awful pressure, but I just didn't know how to make myself normal, so I remained my natural self by default.  Thankfully

  I really don't mind being ... whatever it is that I am, callous, apathetic ... except when something bad
  happens and my lack of reaction is detected.  It's just embarrassing sometimes to be the only one
  in the room not crying, raging, or otherwise distraught.  Yet I do feel that heartache on behalf of animals,
  so I know I have a heart somewhere.  Eh, lack of feeling is comforting most of the time. 

['andersom']

That's why I have precious little confidence in ASD professionals , with a few rare excep[tions.  It's known that ASD is a neurol;ogical thing, not a mental illness, and yet still think of it as if it's a mental illness, or as if you have comprehension issues.

So glad I know one really big exception. She can read me better than I can read myself. She's of great help to me. But then, she does have lots of traits herself.

Seeing behaviour as a function, with a purpose, rather than a signal of defect makes a big difference.

Think it is a problem in lots of the mental health, that there is a fixed idea of healthy. When maybe "mental illness' can also be seen as coping strategies gone too far in lots of cases. That would ask for a way more creative and daring approach.

[Walkie]

That's why I have precious little confidence in ASD professionals , with a few rare excep[tions.  It's known that ASD is a neurol;ogical thing, not a mental illness, and yet still think of it as if it's a mental illness, or as if you have comprehension issues.

So glad I know one really big exception. She can read me better than I can read myself. She's of great help to me. But then, she does have lots of traits herself.

Really glad to hear it    I think what what we really neeed is ASD people councelling ASD people, but not enough of us  qualify, I guess, And those who do qualify wouldm't want to let their bosses know abnout their ASD, if that can be avoided. And then some of us shouldn't be put in that sort of position any more than children should be allowed to play with guns ofc 

Seeing behaviour as a function, with a purpose, rather than a signal of defect makes a big difference.

 

Think it is a problem in lots of the mental health, that there is a fixed idea of healthy. When maybe "mental illness' can also be seen as coping strategies gone too far in lots of cases. That would ask for a way more creative and daring approach.

Indeed.   I 've always liked R.D. Laing with his crackpot idea that his schizophrenic patients were not mad, but rather adapted to a mad society. That was a bit too optimistic I fear, but it was a beautiful example of creative thinking, and challenging societal norms. And that really needs to be done.  And he got a lot people thinking about mental health in a radically different way.
Then there's Seligman. who demonstrated that depression can be- and often is- adaptive. And a healthy adaptation at that. It's more like  nature's way of stopping amnimals from wasting their energies on banging their heads against brick walls.  It only becomes maladaptive when it becomes so ingrained that you won't leave your prison  through an open door, no longer believing in the possibility of open doors.  But I don't think his work had quite such a widespread as it should.  I mean, you still get docors presctibing antipressants to patients who are in a really bad situation, rather than society first attemnpting to change that bad situation.  At which point the patient might , rationally conclude that there isn't a snowflake-in-hells chance of anybody ever undersanding his situation e *chuckle* .

Incidentally, I actually got to see  really good psychologis ( by sheer good luck) when I started  having fantasies about murdering my partner. (I kinda thiught the NHS might treartt that as urf=gent, but i still had to weait 6 months). He askeed a few questions about our relationship,  then told me it was an entirely normal and natural reponse to my situation. You could have knocked me down with a feather! I don't expect to have normal and natural reponses, least of all when they look like that!

I also very much admire Erich Fromm, who pointed out (back in the early seventies, I thonk)  that  the rapid devopment of technologywas  creating an increasingly schizoid society, with corresponding dire consequences for mental health. He drew interesting paralleles between people looking at life though a camera lens( taking snapshots, rather than living in the moment), people using an increasing array of ghousehold chemicals to obliterate  all knopwn germs, and necrophiles and Nazis on the other hand. Hmm. Excuse me if that sounds a bit silly. He took about 700 pages to excplain it all -  highly convincvingly.

And then there's we Autists, who frequently have mental health problems , admittedly.  But Autism isn't a mental health probl;em as such. Not the sort of think you shopuld be seing a psycvhiatrist about, no more than you 'd see a psychiatrist about your dyslexia. But psychiatrists still diagnose it, and that helps to create and sustain a  warped impression of it.

Most "coping strategies gone too far," have just gone on way past their sell-by date, haven't they?  eg. f the kiddy-fiddling uncle went away and never came came back  when you were 7, it's a bit pointless  to still be defending yourself against him at age 50, isn't it?  Autisuic people have deeply ingrained coping strategies too, loads of them , especially Aspies (I suspect that's what really differentiates us from Kanners. Not" severity of autism" so much as the number of coping strategies employed, with what degree of sucess) . But they're different in that there's no reason to think that those strategies would ever become redundant, though a few of them might be overdone, or ill-conceived.  I feel pretty crusd=hed when I read my coping strategies listed asd "symptoms" of AS, and actually treated as  defects . LIke, if you only dropped those coping strategies, you'd be a perfectly normal NT.  The heck I would. i'd be a drooling, ditheriong  mess. I actually have tried dropping them (just  one at a time, ofc) on occasion; that's how I know that they are coping strategies, not merely bad habits ; but how the heck could i ever convey all that self=-knopwledge to some casual advisor? It's like people trying to teach me to walk without a pole, when they can't see ansd don't believe in the tightrope I'm walking.  And when I crash to the ground and hurt myself , I get  something like " That's your own fault. That wouldn't happen if you only let go of that pole, would it? Other people manage to walk without a pole. And they walk better than you do. QED"

I think obsessing is a coping strategy. That's why we can usually switch from one obsession to another with barely a backward glance, unlike people with OCD. We choose to take an obsessive approach ro the things we want to get done, because we find that obsession is effective, and it's better to be good at a few things than crap at absolute;ly everything.  That's my reasoning anyway. But that's not to say I can't drift in to pointless time-wasting obsessions sometimes.  (I think that's called being human, though). But guesd what? I'm the only person on Earrth who pays close enougjh attention to what i'm doing to ever stand a chance of sorting the wheat from the chaff  .

I think attention to detail is another coping strategy, It avoids being flooded with too much informatoion all at once. But autistic people are still looking to grasp the bigger pixcture, and we often do grap the bigger picture extraordinarily well, because they're painstakingly working it  it out from fiost principles , rather than relying on received wisdom. That seems paradoxical, unless you realise that the attention to detail is merely a coping strategy, not an unhealthy compulsion.

A lot of our traits seem really paradoxical, because we're taught to see them through the wrong lenses, and stick the wrong labels on them.
I think being stubborn as heck, and "always right" is another coping strategy. It serves to defend against NT advice which would screw you up if you followed it.  Maybe we don't need that one on a  spazz board though?

And I think that being supremely logical all the time is another defence, one that we might (and often do) outgrow, if we live long enougjh. because tha one is not a defence against the NT world, but a defence against out own unconscious minds which are brimful of scary , irrational things such as intuitiion and emotion. Most of that stuff is quite wonderful  and completely benign, and we only hurt ourselves if we block it out, as my friend Teddybear would attest if he were still here. His greatest regret in life was he waited so long before he gathered the nerve to start living it, rather than hiding in his hole, weighing life up like a shell-shocked groce., and thinking up ways to insure against his insurance policies not paying out.  But then he had OCD as well as Asperger's, so it's a bit of a miracle (for which i'm immensely pleased) that he ever started living at all.

Hmm. and coincidentally, Weeble, I was not really sad  when Teddybear  died. despite  that he was the only  friend I had in this town anymore (and it was therefore damned inconvenient to lose him! but I'm not one to call inconvenience "grief" ).  I was still feeling immensely glad for him that he'd started living at long last. Like Hyke said, different value-system. But my heart is definitely there. I'd felt sad for him often enough during his life.