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Author Topic: Post what you are thinking right now, part two  (Read 272449 times)

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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9180 on: November 14, 2016, 07:08:53 PM »
Trump is in no way unique. There are people like him around the globe, voted into offices and positions of power, or on their way there. The principles that allow it to happen are the same, from conveniently identifiable groups of people to be feared and blamed to supposed quick fixes to national pride and failing economies. It's all so easy.

The frequent misogyny shouldn't come as a surprise, as shouldn't a liberal view on tax laws and such. It's all part of the territory.

Take a historian's view and you'll see patterns repeating themselves. Take a sociologist's and you'll see the mechanics behind those patterns everywhere. For all of our imagined advances, we haven't come that far yet.

If it's a predictable historical pattern, do you think the next president after Trump will be better or worse? Is the country really in decline or is that just hysteria?
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

Offline Walkie

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9181 on: November 14, 2016, 07:34:28 PM »
Hmm, actually Pyraxis, given the somewhat awkward example you quoted (no , i don't mind, but this one happens to be awkward, taken out-of-context) , i fell I have to try and explain the complex role that Muslims have in the British Economy, a little bit. It's complex because there is no single definitive "muslim " population here, and you can't certainly put them down, wholsale  as an economic underclass.  My example was intended to illustrate that . And to illustrate how a genuine memberiof the economic underclass might well feel that his position has been completely misconstued and pissed upon, by the "liberal "pro-immigration  rhetoric .

The "poor v rich" antagonism  can easily extend to some groups of Muslims .  In a country where there's a genuine and serious housing crisis, Landlords are not popular figures, ofc. They may not all be "rich " exactly, but they're clearly gaining an  econnomic advantage from said economic crisis, and often exploit that advantage pretty ruthlessly. Given that something like 75% of   Brits can't afford to buy their own home, and are never likely to, we do , quite naturally, think of Landlors as way above us, in the economic pyramid. The Muslim Landlord is a particularly common figure, largely because of the Way Muslim banking works. Islam is against "usury", so Muslims to ften  "make their money work for them " by investing in property, rather than by buying shares.  Hence, a sucessful Muslim is all-too-likely to be a Landlord, much more so than members of other religions. Just that fact alone is enough to make any representation of Muslims as an underclass seem pretty laughable in general.

Such landlords wil as likely be milking poor Muslimns as milking poor non-muslims, I should add, if that matters. I might also add that the Muslim Landlords in the North mostly hail from long-established British Muslim communities (mostlty hailing from Pakistan and Bangladesh) , The stinking rich Middle-eastern Musslims who buy up properties in The South are another kettle of fish, but they don't help improve the Northerner's image of Muslims. They are disliked all the more, on account of speculations that they are the reason why the Muslims , as a whole, appear to have undue powrr and infuence in Britain.

We do have a lot of sympathy with poor Muslims fleeing  Syra, but that'smixed with  A) genuine fears regarding the spread of Islam (which i'll sabe for another post)  B) genuine fears about increasing population pressure, and inxcreasing numbers of people actually living on the streets C) recognition of the fact that that migrants, of all race and creed,  are being exploited as much as possible , then pushed  into the human dustbin in the North once it's clear that they can't hack it in the South any better than the rest of us  can.  We;re not inclined to regard that as genuine "kindness". We seeing them become as anxious , depressed, disillusioned and  and desperate as the rest of us. Britain doesn't meet their expectations any better than Britain meets ours, as it happens. Indeed they're often  shockedand apalled  in a way we jaded natives have ceased to be shocked and apalled.

I could give more reasons, but that's prolly enough?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 07:38:01 PM by Walkie »

Offline Jack

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9182 on: November 14, 2016, 07:49:18 PM »
If it's a predictable historical pattern
For the democratic party in particular, it seems it might be a pattern. Can remember some time ago, before the candidates were decided, thinking about election trends, because the US definitely swings back and forth within the two party system. If Clinton had won, it would have been a historical trend breaking moment in US history. Can remember reading this among others: http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2013/01/historic-re-election-pattern-doesnt-favor-democrats-in-2016/

Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9183 on: November 14, 2016, 08:46:01 PM »
I could give more reasons, but that's prolly enough?

Yeah. I read through both your posts and that definitely fleshes out the picture.

Especially the Scotland/North of England differences were interesting because of having lived in rural Scotland briefly. I didn't find rents ungodly high, at least when I was there, so that fits with what you said about there not being a housing crisis that far north. Rent was about equivalent to what it was like on the east coast of the USA outside major cities, more expensive than the USA southeast, and far cheaper than places like California and New York. Which AFAIK are more similar to London.

You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9184 on: November 14, 2016, 09:08:11 PM »
Oops. gopher, should have (and meant to) specify that with the last paragraph I wasn't directing the piss off and insults part at odeon but at everybody's favourite rape sprog MLAnus. The first portion of the post was in reply to odeon, the first portion of insult was aimed at the poli-ticks and their filthy politics whilst the very last serving of lukewarm insult was reserved for our local anally-born sodomizer of goats.   

 :lol1:
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Offline odeon

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9185 on: November 15, 2016, 01:36:15 AM »
Trump is in no way unique. There are people like him around the globe, voted into offices and positions of power, or on their way there. The principles that allow it to happen are the same, from conveniently identifiable groups of people to be feared and blamed to supposed quick fixes to national pride and failing economies. It's all so easy.

The frequent misogyny shouldn't come as a surprise, as shouldn't a liberal view on tax laws and such. It's all part of the territory.

Take a historian's view and you'll see patterns repeating themselves. Take a sociologist's and you'll see the mechanics behind those patterns everywhere. For all of our imagined advances, we haven't come that far yet.

If it's a predictable historical pattern, do you think the next president after Trump will be better or worse? Is the country really in decline or is that just hysteria?

I'd say in decline, but I'd also add that I'm not a historian, nor a sociologist, just an interested amateur. Being able to look back and spot patterns is not the same thing as being able to look ahead to predict the outcome of a current crisis. History will tell us that it could get bad, though.

Look at the rise and fall of populist leaders in the past. Nobody thought nazis would ever rise again after WW2, but in spite of all the history lessons and the wealth of information available to us, there they are again. They're not necessarily called nazis but it doesn't take a historian or a sociologist to recognise some of them. It takes a society about a generation or so to forget, probably because our collective capacity to learn from our mistakes is still via the older generation, not an abstract history lesson.

I think the legislators in Germany knew this on some level when making denying the Holocaust illegal. How do you safeguard a nation from something like that, knowing that people are bound to forget?

Is Trump a nazi? Nope. He is just the scariest example of a recent populist leader voted into power, not because he is in any way worse than the others but because of where he is. I wouldn't be half as scared if this had been France and Le Pen.

People forget that Hitler was voted into power, and he is just the most obvious example.
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9186 on: November 15, 2016, 11:32:43 PM »
If it's a predictable historical pattern, do you think the next president after Trump will be better or worse? Is the country really in decline or is that just hysteria?

I'd say in decline, but I'd also add that I'm not a historian, nor a sociologist, just an interested amateur. Being able to look back and spot patterns is not the same thing as being able to look ahead to predict the outcome of a current crisis. History will tell us that it could get bad, though.

Look at the rise and fall of populist leaders in the past. Nobody thought nazis would ever rise again after WW2, but in spite of all the history lessons and the wealth of information available to us, there they are again. They're not necessarily called nazis but it doesn't take a historian or a sociologist to recognise some of them. It takes a society about a generation or so to forget, probably because our collective capacity to learn from our mistakes is still via the older generation, not an abstract history lesson.

I think the legislators in Germany knew this on some level when making denying the Holocaust illegal. How do you safeguard a nation from something like that, knowing that people are bound to forget?

Is Trump a nazi? Nope. He is just the scariest example of a recent populist leader voted into power, not because he is in any way worse than the others but because of where he is. I wouldn't be half as scared if this had been France and Le Pen.

People forget that Hitler was voted into power, and he is just the most obvious example.

I'm still working out what exactly populist means. "Of the people," but it takes such a negative connotation when used about Trump or nazis. Every democratic politician is technically supposed to be of the people. If there is a pattern of populist leaders rising before great wars, I don't know it.

But I've been hearing some very smart people saying since, oh, early 2000's, that the USA is approaching a decline. There are too many similarities between it and the Roman empire at its height.
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

Offline odeon

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9187 on: November 16, 2016, 01:41:02 AM »
If it's a predictable historical pattern, do you think the next president after Trump will be better or worse? Is the country really in decline or is that just hysteria?

I'd say in decline, but I'd also add that I'm not a historian, nor a sociologist, just an interested amateur. Being able to look back and spot patterns is not the same thing as being able to look ahead to predict the outcome of a current crisis. History will tell us that it could get bad, though.

Look at the rise and fall of populist leaders in the past. Nobody thought nazis would ever rise again after WW2, but in spite of all the history lessons and the wealth of information available to us, there they are again. They're not necessarily called nazis but it doesn't take a historian or a sociologist to recognise some of them. It takes a society about a generation or so to forget, probably because our collective capacity to learn from our mistakes is still via the older generation, not an abstract history lesson.

I think the legislators in Germany knew this on some level when making denying the Holocaust illegal. How do you safeguard a nation from something like that, knowing that people are bound to forget?

Is Trump a nazi? Nope. He is just the scariest example of a recent populist leader voted into power, not because he is in any way worse than the others but because of where he is. I wouldn't be half as scared if this had been France and Le Pen.

People forget that Hitler was voted into power, and he is just the most obvious example.

I'm still working out what exactly populist means. "Of the people," but it takes such a negative connotation when used about Trump or nazis. Every democratic politician is technically supposed to be of the people. If there is a pattern of populist leaders rising before great wars, I don't know it.

But I've been hearing some very smart people saying since, oh, early 2000's, that the USA is approaching a decline. There are too many similarities between it and the Roman empire at its height.

It's less about what the word means than what it stands for in this context. It stands for simplified, dumbed-down problem descriptions and solutions. It stands for quick fixes for complex issues, of the kind that tend to be good to be true but that appeal to voters. There is always a component of blame against one or several groups of people conveniently classifiable as threats--and with another suggested quick fix. The targets are dissatisfied voters, people who feel they've been forgotten about by the political establishment time and again, and there is the promise of national unity and greatness.

Mind, the dissatisfaction will be legitimate a lot of the time. There may be an actual threat from an outside group. The society may suffer from the precisely the kind of issues outlined. It could all be real.

The quick fixes never are, though.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9188 on: November 16, 2016, 08:55:20 PM »
Ok, that makes sense.

In that context it's interesting that Trump got elected based on quick fixes even when the media was against him. Usually it's the mainstream media responsible for trite sound bites and oversimplified, inflammatory reporting.
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

Offline odeon

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9189 on: November 17, 2016, 01:10:08 AM »
Agreed. I'd say the FBI bombshell, duly covered by the media, was the deciding factor.

But it's the kind of world we live in. The media, ironically, is partly responsible for Trump being elected as both of them feed on populism. Journalism is going down hill, too.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Walkie

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9190 on: November 17, 2016, 02:12:15 PM »
I'd better go do something else, awhile. I've just got to the point of thinking "Ooh! New reply on that thread", clicking, then suddenly recalling  "Oh yeah, i just replied there myself, didn't I?" :facepalm:

Am I developing an I2 addiction?

Offline Fun With Matches

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9191 on: November 17, 2016, 05:53:22 PM »
^ Y'know, this place has really grown on me, I thought I would just visit, find it boring then leave. I like it here, it feels relaxed and chilled out. And you guys are really funny and take the piss out of yourselves. I don't reply to every joke cos I don't really have much to add and I'm not great at banter, but some of the things you people come out with are really funny!
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Offline Jack

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9192 on: November 17, 2016, 05:56:21 PM »

Offline Fun With Matches

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9193 on: November 17, 2016, 06:05:56 PM »
^ Was that in response to me?
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Offline Jack

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #9194 on: November 17, 2016, 07:11:37 PM »