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Author Topic: Post what you are thinking right now, part two  (Read 272999 times)

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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8565 on: April 26, 2016, 05:30:07 PM »
  That laundry isn't going to wash and dry itself.  :kapkao:
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Offline Lestat

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8566 on: April 26, 2016, 06:12:19 PM »
You are making me want to find a copy of breaking bad S1 via torrent and download that.

Think it would appeal to me, CBC, or do you think I'd be more likely to sit at the computer screen, noting anything in error, technique wise, and doing that thing trek nerds etc, and whovians do, where they can't help but keep going 'but it works THIS way, not quite how he's doing XYZ' or 'would have got a better yield by trying.......*insert procedure here* or 'but if he only were to try THIS reagent instead of or alongside the thing being cooked up, it would go quicker/scrub pig-attracting lab-smells.

The kind of thing where trekkies would insist on working out the physics of things and how it would/wouldn't work/would go better/worse ?

CBC, in breaking bad, is the guy solely a meth cook? or does he get up to anything more exciting? I wouldn't mind copping a look at a Birch-Benckeser reduction in use though, does it feature at all?
(its the so-called 'nazi method' for making methamphetamine from ephedrine or P-fed, anhydrous ammonia is condensed into a cryogenic liquid from the gaseous variety, or stolen, in the US, often from farmer's tanks of fertilizer (not that I'd steal from a farmer, they are under no obligation to help me, if I wanted to make some meth, or to provide me with annie at all for that matter), and then lithium metal, commonly scrounged out of batteries, is then added to produce the socalled lithium bronze, a deep blue colored solution, although the scientific term for the solvated-electron soup you end up with, or rather the compound formed by the alkali metal in anhydrous ammonia itself, is known as an 'electride'  and then the substrate, such as ephedrine or p-fed is added, reducing either one to meth quickly, and much, MUCH more cleanly than doing the ol'  iodine or hydriodic acid/red phosphorus (or phosphorous [not phosphoric sadly] or hypophosphorus acid may be used instead of red P, although afaik those can't be recycled and reused unlike the more-or-less, almost catalytic action of red P, which works by forming first, in-situ, phosphorus triiodide, that iodinates the alcohol on the sidechain of eph or pseudo, then the HI, either formed from the I2/hydrolysis of the phosphorus iodide, phossy halides don't play well with water, you just get hydrolysis to the hydrogen halide, and HI is a powerful reducing agent, the active species  doing the actual reduction in the phossy/iodine cooks, the phos compounds acting to continuously form, break down into HI, and allow its continual recycling in a catalytic chain, although as I understand, it isn't a TRUE catalyst, technically, in that some is lost, just not much, and over time you do need to buy some more, you can't use the same lot literally forever, but you DO get quite a few reactions out of any one quantity)

It isn't what you could call a pretty or elegant way to do it though, HI/RP reduction is more or less the equivalent of using a hammer to bash screws into something for an electrician or carpenter, and its more or less similar in concept. A sledgehammer to squash a mosquito sat on one's wall. Works, sure, but it can be too aggressive. And form a lot of nasty byproducts too.  Which is why I'd love to try a Birch-Benkeser some time, have heard that subjectively the result produces FAR less hangover and is infinitely cleaner feeling compared to crystal made using the irish screwdriver of a HI reduction. Eschewing eph/pseudo cooks altogether though, can be done via 1-phenyl-2-propanone (aka 'PMK' P2P' 'BMK') and reductive amination of that using methylamine, or for something a bit smoother and less usual, ethylamine to give one N-ethylamphetamine, which is actually quite nice, compared to meth, its a fair bit less jittery)

As far as P2P cooks go though the reduction is achiral, at least with any commonly used techniques so the result is racemic meth, D,L in equal or more or less, proportions compared to just D-meth from ephedrine or pseudo. D-meth, is active, and sought after. L? not so, in fact its OTC in the US in some cold inhaler products as all it does is act as a decongestant via inducing noradrenaline release, making racemic meth jitterier than that from reducing pseudo/eph. Although I don't lay claim to the route as a speciality in the least. Here we do not have to show ID, or prick a finger and place our mark in the devil's black book before a pharmacist will sell. Limit is a box per transaction, but its per transaction and just don't go take the absolute piss to a disrespectful extent, I.e don't treat the pharmacist in a way thats just insulting their intelligence. No monthly limit, no cross-premises communication. So its a matter of how far someones willing to walk round different premises, and how slim or fat one's wallet is which dictates availability.


Also, thinking shit, that was too close, I just drifted off a little to sleep for a microsecond or two, not fully asleep, awake enough to realize that muscles relaxing were about to send my laptop crashing down to the floor, and trying to pull myself back awake again. Got there just in time, with two-three fingers of one hand staying to pin the computer down to my knees (lying in bed, knees bent up, reclining)

Wondering if I've got enough appetite for a custard donut from the bag sitting on my bedside table/cabinet or if all I feel like is a cold drink. The latter I think, I would LIKE a donut but I don't think I have room inside right now.



NOT that I'd use a TV show as a guide , but heh, could be fun to have it on to watch in the background whilst doing a cook. I bet there have been loads of cooks done that, assuming such people would find it entertaining, to make life imitate art, as they say.
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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8567 on: April 26, 2016, 06:51:06 PM »
  Well, he starts out cooking with cold medicine provided by his young partner Jesse's  "smurfs"
  (suppliers), but soon Walter switches to methylamine as his precursor of choice.  As for exciting stuff
  other than cooking, well, yes, he's a major new player in a drug scene dominated by the Mexican cartel,
  so he quickly has to learn to play hardball.  You should definitely watch the show, maybe critique the cook,
  and enjoy the dark humor and great writing and acting.  It's a hell of a ride!  :heisenberg:
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Offline Queen Victoria

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8568 on: April 26, 2016, 09:25:37 PM »
Are Lestat and Al related?
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Offline Lestat

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8569 on: April 26, 2016, 10:55:30 PM »
Who is Al, QV?

Don't know who it is, but if its a chemist from breaking bad, then, well none of my blood relatives that I know of are into practicing the art themselves either as a hobby or commercially. But judge for yourself. Fr.ex I just went to have a bowl of cereal, and found theres no milk in the fridge, only a bottle of ethyl acetate (a common polar, protic solvent, that in addition to the lab grade stuff in the fridge, is used in some kinds of nail varnish remover that are acetone-free (or rather as I read into the label and think of the subtext 'barren of acetone content, and as such, sub-standard muck :P ' )
Has a pleasant, fruity odor, as a great many esters do (esters are some of the commonest chemicals used in scents and flavourings, perfumes, fruit flavored candies, e-fag liquids etc., such as EtOAc, that smells pleasantly, if somewhat generically fruity. Oddly the stuff in the fridge, I just wafted a bit dribbled onto paper towards my nose (its not particularly toxic, but if things need to be smell-tested  thats prudent to avoid overexposure anyway. Its a good idea to try and drum good habits and practice into oneself, then it avoids having to think about it when it does matter, and is important.

But it smelled more like...like xylene or tolly. I wasn't expecting that. Will have to test it now and make sure thats not actually what is in the bottle, if I've re-used it and forgot the label (ethyl acetate, 99%) after begging some xylene or toluene off someone if I was at some point, out of one or the other. Don't THINK theres owt but EtOAc in there, but I am going to be checking before I use it for owt.

Actually in general, because of the pronounced scents of many, ester preparation is a good experiment for youngsters or new people to chemistry as a hobby, for instance theres amyl acetate  has a strong scent of bananas, with hints of sharper notes underneath, again fruity. (amyl=synonym for the n-pentyl group, the group after the 4-carbon butyl aliphatic alkane hydrocarbon group, that gives rise to butane, as the pentyl group is found most basically, as pentane, a very volatile, although unlike butane pentane is liquid at room temperature, so long as the room in question is rather cool, and the weather isn't too warm (boiling point is 36 deg. centigrade, give or take a few fractions of a percentage point. I like it myself, a favoured solvent when I need a nonpolar, thats unreactive because its easy to boil off and redistill for reuse after one finishes doing whatever it is that they are doing with the pentane, even for those without a vacuum pump, not that I need worry there :)

The pentyl/amyl (n-amyl, that is) acetate is really nice smelling to me, I love bananas themselves, but this is weapons-grade, if one can conceive of such a thing as a weapons grade banana. Although it also serves as an aggregation, and attack pheromone to (honey) bees. Its present in the sting and released on its use, provoking the rest of the swarm to attack, although I've never seen it in practice. I wouldn't try either, given that the bees barbed stings are suicide-weapons, and I will not have them die for me, to sate a curiosity. Its also used in pear drops, the  boiled sweets, to scent and flavour them.


I think I'll have to give breaking bad a look couldbe. Sounds like the sort of movie  I'd enjoy watching. Going to look for a torrent soon, after finishing my current torrent downloads (doom III, and looking for X-com the bureau as well as hopefully once its been out a bit, someone to pirate X-com 2 and torrent it.


Picked up any tips yourself yet CBC? then I guess one could say you went from couldbe to couldbEE ;)
(reference to The Hive, a now no longer up board online, although there have been successors  in content, and now, I'm glad to say, a spiritual heir also, as damn close as.
Had some truly hilarious characters posting, a lot of it was stimulant-related, although the stimulant subforum was only one part, there was all sorts, from aquisition tips for reagents and precursors, to advanced chem techniques,vto tryptamine chemistry, and the always funny as shit 'the couch', pretty much our place to kick it back and relax with fellow bees
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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8570 on: April 27, 2016, 05:46:21 AM »
  Al being Al Swearengen/Sir Les.  You both make long posts.  8)
"I'm finding a lot of things funny lately, but I don't think they are."
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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8571 on: April 27, 2016, 05:49:24 AM »
  Haven't gotten any tips, but then, I don't ... cook.  :P


  Breaking Bad runs for six seasons.  Yes, they called it Season 5, parts 1 and 2,
  but they aired them a year apart.  So you may be downloading the whole thing. 
  You won't want to miss any of the characters or plot twists.  :tv:
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:33:38 AM by couldbecousin »
"I'm finding a lot of things funny lately, but I don't think they are."
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"We are grateful for the time we have been given."
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People forget.
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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8572 on: April 27, 2016, 07:43:08 AM »
Looking forward to heading out to the Berkshires later and a romantic 25th Anniversary mini vacation.  We'll be staying at a nice comfy B&B in Stockbridge Mass.  Do some hiking around, visit some old places and enjoy a little karmic  :mischief: thinking as I visit old places that I used to work at when I was poor and desperate.    :mischief:  Yes, it will be quite pleasurable on all levels!    8)
The move is done, got some things off my mind....time to enjoy and celebrate 25 years of being with the perfect life partner for me!    8)
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Offline Queen Victoria

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8573 on: April 27, 2016, 10:25:00 AM »
  Al being Al Swearengen/Sir Les.  You both make long posts.  8)

Gee, I didn't realize it was so obvious to anyone else.   
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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8574 on: April 27, 2016, 11:03:20 AM »
  Al being Al Swearengen/Sir Les.  You both make long posts.  8)

Gee, I didn't realize it was so obvious to anyone else.
:lol1:

Didn't we have a captain obvious here somewhere?

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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8575 on: April 28, 2016, 06:35:11 AM »
  Al being Al Swearengen/Sir Les.  You both make long posts.  8)

Gee, I didn't realize it was so obvious to anyone else.
:lol1:

Didn't we have a captain obvious here somewhere?

  Did somebody call for ... :captainobvious: ... Captain Obvious?
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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8576 on: April 28, 2016, 01:01:44 PM »
  Al being Al Swearengen/Sir Les.  You both make long posts.  8)

Gee, I didn't realize it was so obvious to anyone else.
:lol1:

Didn't we have a captain obvious here somewhere?

  Did somebody call for ... :captainobvious: ... Captain Obvious?
:worship:
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Offline Lestat

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8577 on: April 29, 2016, 06:09:39 AM »
Smurf/ing doesn't just refer a to errand boys but can also mean the action of going round many different pharmacies, picking up  PSE at each one. This being a practical solution primarily in the  UK due to  reporting list rules in the US. Theres no requirement or even ever requests to show ID for pseudo. If it ever does get cracked down on then the govt are actually more likely to be letting themselves in for more
than they -bargained for. INCREASING  rather than decreasing the national total supply, and thus increasing availability. Because generally the quantities of pseudo are limited, to a certain degree in availability , ounces and multiples of ounces, depending on how patient the cook is, weather or not there are runners employed to smurf supplies in greater quantities than a single chemist on their own can practically  manage  etc. 

But if that route were either taken out either wholly or in part, that would force cooks to use alternate routes. P2P (synonymous-PMK, phenyl methyl ketone, BMK-benzyl methyl ketone. P2P being short for 1-phenyl-2-propanone  or 1-phenyl-propan-2-one, same thing, different nomenclature), for which multiple routes exist.  This is then reductively aminated using methylamine as the amine source (for meth) although  other primary alkyl amines could be used, such as ethylamine to give N-ethyl amphetamine which is not bad at all, quite smooth and less jittery than meth.  Although the amphetamines produced via reductive amination, at least the usual routes, are racemic, there probably are enantioselective reduction methods available, although a chiral synth is more than a commercial cook is very likely to try. or beyond them.  The alternative to using some kind of chirally directing  reducing agent which IMO may succeed although I'd need to look into it if I decided to try.
The alternative would be to waste part, the laevorotatory isomer of the finished amphetamine product and resolve the isomers afterwards by for example selective  crystallization of the D- or L-speed with the
appropriate isomer of tartaric acid, as this is a chiral organic acid, and it will co-crystallize out with the corresponding isomer of the chiral product, D-tartaric acid will form crystalline salts with dextro- but not laevo-amphetamine/meth etc and L-tartaric acid will only crystallize with laevo, not dextro isomers of a chiral amine.

Doesn't matter which way round one goes IMO, take one half of a binary mixture out of the pair, get left with the other.


Although doing this, whilst it will allow for the selective isolation of the desirable D-'phet it does leave one with the other half as dross. IIRC deamination is possible to reform P2P and rerun the synth again to claw
back some more D-meth /D-amphetamine for one's available resources.

Alternatively theres the knoevanagel (Henry) condensation reaction instead of P2P. Its a lot easier to do than trying to resolve a racemate end product and using (I THINK) a chiral amine base as the catalyst   may well produce an enantiopure product. The knoevanagel/henry is done by condensation of a benzaldehyde and and a nitroalkane catalyzed by an amine base, to give an intermediate beta-nitroalkene, if nitromethane is chosen, then the result is a beta-nitrostyrene, and this on reduction will give a phenethylamine. Phenethylamine itself, not active in vivo due to being eaten up instantly by monoamineoxidase-A results from condensation of benzaldehyde and nitromethane. Substituted benzaldehydes are more interesting here, for the capacity to produce all manner of substituted phenethylamines, many having psychedelic activity, such as mescaline and its analogs, 2C-B, 2C-I, 2C-D,  2C-E, 2C-T-7, and many more besides.

The use of nitroethane instead of nitromethane results in a beta-nitropropene as an intermediate, on reduction this will yield an amphetamine. Not sure how chirally selective it is generally speaking, as I've only used the reaction with nitromethane. And owing to the lack of the alpha-methyl group on amphetamine, which is the location of the chiral carbon, the phenethylamines are not chiral. Outside the realms
of those having a ring substitution pattern permitting the presence of a chiral center. Most of them this doesn't apply to though, and are achiral.

Its a very easy reaction to run though, dissolve the benzaldehyde and the nitroalkene in solvent, methanol, preferably dried over anhydrous magnesium sulfate (epsom salts are hydrated MgSO4, spread out on baking foil on a baking tray and whack it in the oven until it turns white and crunchy, its quite obvious when this has been performed to completion. Once its cooled, a bit it can be added to the methanol, and it allowed to sit, and settle out, having bound much of the water, it'll improve yield some, although its not at all essential. The rxn can also be performed in neat nitromethane as a solvent, or nitroethane if making amphetamines, but since these are precursors too, it makes far more sense to use the cheap and throwaway MeOH and use only the requisite molar quantity of your nitroalkane. Then add your amine catalyst, pref. a secondary or tertiary amine. Ammonium acetate is used as well too sometimes, although there are better ones by far. I favor triethylenetetramine myself, TETA, can be isolated from some epoxy glue kits as the hardening compound, other options include cyclohexylamine, tert-butylamine, ethylaminediamine diacetate aka EDDA. Ammonium acetate does at least have the advantage of being very available, from glacial acetic acid and ammonia. Or just boiled down white vinegar to provide the acetic acid until as concentrated as it can be made. For best yields though, different substrate aldehydes seem to have different
preferences with respect to catalyst chosen. although never having heard of the use of TETA before, it was to hand   and has given very impressive results w/nitromethane knoevanagels.


For the reduction of the nitroalkenes, there are many ways. Lithium aluminium hydride is quick, its clean, its selective and doesn't result in any horrible byproducts or nasty waste. It does need care in its use
however. Flame dried glassware, solvents (ethers, usually  the cyclic ether tetrahydrofuran as it forms a complex with the LAH, diethyl ether is another good bet), regardless of which is chosen it must be  rigorously dried and distilled over lithium (more available to most people) or sodium wire/sodium granules to scrub the last little traces of water out of your solvent.  Drying the glassware in the oven is just fine, and a blanket of argon (welding gas bottles, it can be dried by passage through conc. sulfuric acid, then scrubbed of any acid traces by further passage through powdered caustic soda) because LAH is pyrophoric
and likes to burst into intensely hot, hard to put out metal fires. That, in highly volatile and flammable THF or ether really wouldn't be pretty. And even less attractive a prospect when one has an expensive investment of reagents and precursors in that etherial solution, undergoing reduction.


Another, easier reduction, although its suitable for nitrostyrenes, not sure if its suitable for  nitropropenes, is to use aluminium amalgam, aluminium is a very reactive metal indeed, but so much so that
it forms an inert, but very thin surface layer of oxide that  passivates the metal and retards further oxidation. Mercuric salts (I believe the metal can be used but would have to check) strip the oxide layer and prevent it from reforming (actually so effectively, that application of a bit of Hg to a block of aluminium by stopping the instantaneous repassivation, and damaging the protective layer, allows the air to rapidly attack the Al, the corrosion spreads like a plague, literally, like a creeping border of bacterial infection or decay, and it really does creep, slowly, for a solid block, as though a living disease were at work, assaulting
the Al, and you just get it crumble away. For this reason, transport of mercury and items containing it, is prohibited on aircraft, which are made out of aluminium due to its light weight and strength, etc.

The plane, if said Hg were carried thereon, and it were to get loose, could quite literally, cause the plane to  fall apart in mid air. Bit of a nasty thought, eh? sitting there in your seat, eating your in-flight meal, only to find yourself in your seat, but your seat no longer having a plane attached anymore!!

Hg is toxic, but it does work, Al foil, chopped into squares and crumpled up into balls, doesn't need to be super tight, or too loose, controlling the available surface area accessible to the mercury salt and the surrounding environment, and then addition of substrate, reflux, although its exothermic and can start to supply sufficient heat to the reaction to keep it going once started. So temperature control is needed.

Alternatively, there are dissolving metal reductions available, some more useful on some substrate types than others. HCl, or glacial acetic acid and the likes of zinc or iron powder,  never done it though.

Another one thats looking interesting, not tried it, but reading on the use of the lanthanide samarium as the triiodide or presumably other nonfluorine trihalides of samarium, it looks like it might have real serious potential for the reduction of beta-nitrostyrenes/nitropropenes.


If anyone's interested, just say so, and I can post up some of the most facile, and from-scratch routes to nitroethane. NitroMethane can be had from commercial RC model racing car fuel, usually mixed with both methanol, which is fine in the knoevanagel/henry reaction anyway, and oil to lube the engine up which isn't, but which can easily be separated via distillation of the nitro under vac (careful, nitromethane can be explosive if its mistreated, but its not too dangerous to allow for as a procedure, just care should be taken),  and small quantities of benzaldehyde can be had from many artificial almond essences, or by oxidation of toluene , which again if anyone wants to try, just say so and I'll post up some protocols for doing it at home:)




And another route to amphetamine couldbe perhaps from propiophenone and pthalimide, to prepare pthalimidopropiophenone. Reduction of both imide to imine to amine and subsequent or at the same time, reduction of the carbonyl group might work. then cleavage off of pthalic acid in acid. Certainly pthalimidopropiophenone itself apparently is metabolized in vivo to pthalic acid and beta-ketoamphetamine (cathinone), the same compound as plays the role of main active stimulant in the plant known and chewed as 'khat', Catha edulis.
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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8578 on: April 29, 2016, 11:15:10 AM »
Thinking about Al's failed callout.
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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Post what you are thinking right now, part two
« Reply #8579 on: April 30, 2016, 12:56:27 AM »
  Thinking I'm a fortunate person in every way.  8)
"I'm finding a lot of things funny lately, but I don't think they are."
--- Ripley, Alien Resurrection


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People forget.
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