Kate chose not to obey

[Beardy McFuckface]

 

['Butterflies']

Feminism, in its simplest form is about equality. So any normal feminist would be against sexism whether it's directed towards men OR women. Of coiurse you get asshole feminists who are very anti-men and see everything as sexist. But those are extremists.

Also, while I see your point about there being much worse stuff going on elsewhere (and I feel very strongly about that - particularly sexual minorities and children's rights, ie child marriage and FGM), I don't think that is ever reason to not both fighting the smaller problems in your own country

For example I often see people saying to gay people "don't complain - they'd kill you in Jamaica" or whatever. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for gay people to be able to get married, just becuase there's much worse issues for gay people elsewhere in the world

And the same goes for sexism. Sure, women in the UK and the US generally don't experience shit anyway NEAR as bad as women in other countries, but it would be lazy and inexcusable to settle for "almost equal but not quite" just because it's even less unequal elsewhere.

Legally, of course, women are generally equal in the West now. But there's still some social attitudes that, yes, need changing. You can complain that that means I'm trying to force my views on others. But I don't care really. I think racist and homophobic attitudes need changing as well. That's just how it is. You (not you personally) have the right to hold sexist or racist views. But I will fight for society to move away from those views.

Exactly how I feel, but said better than I could have

['andersom']

How is making martial rape illegal akin to giving privileges to "womyn"?

Call me a fuckface all you want, but try to not like a retard about this.

Its not acceptable and anyone with a brain knows it, asshole. Making an issue out of this is an excuse to bully men, and i'm SICK OF IT. And sure, i'll "try to not like a retard" you fucking retard.

It's redefining rape legally that makes it possible to press charges in clear cases of rape, that were not seen as rape before.
There were countries where only penetration with a penis was seen as rape. So, a boy who got raped with a broken bottle could press charges for assault, but, not for rape.
Redefining definitions, and making them more logical is not only done for women. Men are raped too, and men can be raped by women.

['andersom']

Not everyone has common sense, Rage. You're putting too much faith in humanity.

That was what I was about to post.

['andersom']

But you are acting a retard.

How does it bully men? It's not adding privileges, it's making something as horrible as rape in marriage illegal. To me, that actually seems fair.

Its contributing to the turd wave feminism brainwashing. The liberal agenda, and a brave new world of stupidity. Fuck off, shithead.

That's a whole web of strawmans right there.

Just because I believe martial rape should be made illegal, does not mean I'm brainwashed by some liberal agenda.

If you want a belter of a strawman, I can say you're advocating martial rape.

Just because I believe martial rape should be made illegal

It does. It means you're in favor of more laws, bigger government, and being a fucking overgrown baby who can't think for himself. Unwitting mouthpiece of the liberal agenda. You are a fucking idiot.

It will make the laws easier if you don't define rape anymore as something done against the virtue of someone. And if you take the details of unwanted penetration by a penis away from the definition of rape. The history of rape legislation is not as simple as it can be. So, redefining and finetuning can make laws on rape to be less than they are now. Less appeals on getting away with some open ends. It could make the system work cleaner and smaller.

['andersom']

Rage, you're contradicting yourself here.

Surely torturing cats and women is wrong by common sense?

Surely it would be a common sense law to see "do not stone women to death"?

And for the last time, I have been arguing AGAINST THIS KIND OF TREATMENT OF WOMEN during this whole debate.

If "don't rape women" is a common sense law, isn't "don't stone themto death" also pretty common sense?

My point was, why spend time on something which would be taken care of by the police anyway, when actual cruelty and evil exists elsewhere? My point is, you live in a first world country, as such people know raping is wrong. Stop being so stubborn and just admit that you want to dictate what people think, and how they should live.

We're not talking about NOW though, are we? The whole thing about marital rape was from over 20 years ago, and we're only still discussing it becuase Les going on and on like a dog with a bone.

What *I* was initially arguing about what women in Iraq etc (there you go - just what you said we should be focusing on) and the historical definition of marriage. So shoot me for that last one. I've spent years studying history and it's one of my main interests. So I will discuss it if it comes up.

If you want to know who to blame for this debate getting stuck in the mud, try Les. Not me. My main issue (and bodie's too) was women being persecuted in the middle east.

In Bulgaria rape within marriage is not a crime.
If the rapist manages to marry the victim before trial, there will be no penalty. This is also true is the victim is under 14 years of age.

Oh, this is what I could find on rape of women, by men, gay marriage is not done in Bulgaria yet.

[TheoK]

In Sweden before 1965 you could only report a rape to the cops within 6 months after you had been raped. Rape within the marriage was legal.

['andersom']

In the Netherlands legislation on rape within marriage was changed in 1991. Before that, not the rapist, but the raped spouse was the problem, because of not willing to fulfill marital duties.
In 1991 the legislation on rape also was made gender neutral.

[Adam]

The legal side of rape is still an issue even today.

Men as victims of rape, non-penetrative rape, non-violent rape, rape within relationships and attempted rape of transgender people*  - all are socially and legally subject seen as a grey area by many people. Or even as "not proper rape" at all.

It's not as simple as it should be. Of course, rape is rape, regardless of who does it and to whom. But that's not how people see it, and that's not always how the law sees it. So its still something that needs addressing. The legal aspect of marital rape was one of those.

*(eg the recent case in Sweden I think it was? - thrown out because the rapist hadn't realised his victim was transgender until he ripped her clothes off and then changed his mind... so got away with it initially)

[Adam]

This is pretty long and I don't expect you all to read it all (I haven't read the entire thing), but here's some info on marital rape on the uk BEFORE THE 1991 CHANGE OF LAW that Les has such a problem with.

http://www.crim.cam.ac.uk/people/academic_research/kate_painter/wiferape.pdf

[TheoK]

The legal side of rape is still an issue even today.

Men as victims of rape, non-penetrative rape, non-violent rape, rape within relationships and attempted rape of transgender people*  - all are socially and legally subject seen as a grey area by many people. Or even as "not proper rape" at all.

It's not as simple as it should be. Of course, rape is rape, regardless of who does it and to whom. But that's not how people see it, and that's not always how the law sees it. So its still something that needs addressing. The legal aspect of marital rape was one of those.

*(eg the recent case in Sweden I think it was? - thrown out because the rapist hadn't realised his victim was transgender until he ripped her clothes off and then changed his mind... so got away with it initially)

I remember that case. Checked it now. He got 1.5 year in the court of appeals.

[Al Swearegen]

Feminism, in its simplest form is about equality. So any normal feminist would be against sexism whether it's directed towards men OR women. Of coiurse you get asshole feminists who are very anti-men and see everything as sexist. But those are extremists.

Also, while I see your point about there being much worse stuff going on elsewhere (and I feel very strongly about that - particularly sexual minorities and children's rights, ie child marriage and FGM), I don't think that is ever reason to not both fighting the smaller problems in your own country

For example I often see people saying to gay people "don't complain - they'd kill you in Jamaica" or whatever. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for gay people to be able to get married, just becuase there's much worse issues for gay people elsewhere in the world

And the same goes for sexism. Sure, women in the UK and the US generally don't experience shit anyway NEAR as bad as women in other countries, but it would be lazy and inexcusable to settle for "almost equal but not quite" just because it's even less unequal elsewhere.

Legally, of course, women are generally equal in the West now. But there's still some social attitudes that, yes, need changing. You can complain that that means I'm trying to force my views on others. But I don't care really. I think racist and homophobic attitudes need changing as well. That's just how it is. You (not you personally) have the right to hold sexist or racist views. But I will fight for society to move away from those views.

Most of what you write here is sensible and nothing to be argued against BUT Feminism is not about equality. It is about promoting women.Nothing more or less

[Adam]

No. It's about sex equality. The fact that that effectively means promoting equality for WOMEN, simply reflects the fact that it's the women who have been suffering from inequalities.

It's not about pushing women above men. Just like gay pride is not about gay being better than straight.

Feminism is only "about promoting women" in that it's clearly the women who've been in need of equality. Promoting men would have been kind of silly. It is not about "promoting" them ABOVE men. It is about equality, whether you like it or not

[Beardy McFuckface]

The term "feminism" came about because it started at a time when women had huge inequalities. Made sense really.

Personally I think the word is getting a bit out of date nowadays, especially since feminism applies for general gender equality. It's what catches some people off and make them think its "female orientated", when for the large part it really isn't.

Don't tell that to the extremists, though. Then again, feminists can't even agree with each other half the time.

[Al Swearegen]

Lets step into the family law courts and see how "equal" things are for males and then you can tell me that it is or was about equality