Kate chose not to obey

[Jack]

In Sweden women actually often insist on paying their restaurant bills themselves on a date.

Do you mean the full bill,  or just their half?   In the UK the term for splitting a bill is 'going Dutch'  -  i have no idea why

It's called dutch in the US too; never got it either. It seems more commonly expected these days; men don't necessarily always have the larger pay check anymore.

[Adam]

Holy crap. Is that what this discussion is about? Have been avoiding that one. Was talking about marriage traditions being viewed as passing the ball or something. Don't really view it as a different level of the same thing at all, no.

Is what what this discussion is about?

The whole sexism thing is over a few threads, but it's generally been about

1. marriage historically being about passing on a woman from her father to her husband
2. women's position in present-day Iraq/Iran/Saudi Arabia etc

And as for the slave thing, of course it's not the same thing. But the whole concept of someone being owned by someone else is. A woman was owned by her father and then by her husband.

I was just commenting about marriage ceremonies and the sense of ownership married couples and parents can experience; you responded with rape and slavery and I wasn't talking about that. Have no argument to what you say on those topics, so I'm not going to discuss that with you.

Oh ok, sorry. I thought you were responding to the whole argument in general.
I agree about people being territorial in a relationship etc, and about people viewing kids as theirs.

[Jack]

No worries.

[Adam]

In Sweden women actually often insist on paying their restaurant bills themselves on a date.

Do you mean the full bill,  or just their half?   In the UK the term for splitting a bill is 'going Dutch'  -  i have no idea why

It's called dutch in the US too; never got it either. It seems more commonly expected these days; men don't necessarily always have the larger pay check anymore.

I think a lot of the time it's whoever asks for the date (if it's a first date or if it's obvious) who pays now.

[Semicolon]

OK so you can 100% say for absolute certain that a) It is legal for a man to rape his wife and b) that possession as in slave OR possession as in she is mine and with me so you can't have her and she is my responsibilities.

For is to "be legal for a man to rape his wife" UI want you to show that law because I know that in some cultures rapes are hard to prosecute for because courts do not want to go there.....but that is not to say it is legal. So, big claim, can you back it?

a. Rape of woman by her wife was not even legally recognised as rape until relatively recently. You would not be prosecuted for raping your wife as it was not even seen as rape.
It is still not a criminal offence in a lot of countries, even today
And yes, there have been cases  in the UK where (before the law was changed) men have got away with rape of their wives because of the marital rape exemption.

http://www.brightknowledge.org/knowledge-bank/law-and-politics/features-and-resources/famous-cases-regina-v-r

b. Not sure what you're asking of me here? What do you want evidence for?

Of coures I'm not saying that me referring to my wife as "my" wife is the same as slavery. I'm not even saying the historical status of wives is the same as slavery. I'm saying legally and socially, they were viewed as the property of their husbands. They were people owned by their masters. Of course they weren't sold at auctions, but they were owned by their husbands nonetheless. Not slavery, but ownership of a different kind.

Do marital rape laws discriminate based on the genders of the rapist and victim?

There are still laws on the books that define rape as being a man's attack on a woman. In Scotland, only men can be rapists because rape must be committed with a penis.

That's just a tangent to the main argument, though.

Source

[Adam]

I have no idea actually.

Rape of men (by women or other men), even today, is still a big problem. I dunno the figures, but men who've been raped often won't come to the police etc (I know that's true of women who've been raped too, but I'm sure it's even more common among male victims). So I'm guessing historically it's been even more of an issue. I doubt many men who'd been sexually assaulted by their wives would have even admitted it back then, so I'm not sure how it would have been treated in law. Will have a look if I can find anything.

[Semicolon]

I have no idea actually.

Rape of men (by women or other men), even today, is still a big problem. I dunno the figures, but men who've been raped often won't come to the police etc (I know that's true of women who've been raped too, but I'm sure it's even more common among male victims). So I'm guessing historically it's been even more of an issue. I doubt many men who'd been sexually assaulted by their wives would have even admitted it back then, so I'm not sure how it would have been treated in law. Will have a look if I can find anything.

[bodie]

In Sweden women actually often insist on paying their restaurant bills themselves on a date.

Do you mean the full bill,  or just their half?   In the UK the term for splitting a bill is 'going Dutch'  -  i have no idea why

It's called dutch in the US too; never got it either. It seems more commonly expected these days; men don't necessarily always have the larger pay check anymore.

I think a lot of the time it's whoever asks for the date (if it's a first date or if it's obvious) who pays now.

It's been a long while,  and i can't remember 

[TheoK]

We must ask the Dutch about the peculiar expression 

[Adam]

Not sure exactly what to search for here. Everything I'm finding seems to be about men raping their wives, present day stuff and the occasional porn link.

I guess I'd have to read through the actual laws, but I'm too knackered to do that now. I might see if I can find the actual referncce to rape in the marital rape exemption. I would guess that it explicitly states raping the woman, but I'm not sure. It would be interesting to know how an incident like that would have been treated in the courts.

[Jack]

We must ask the Dutch about the peculiar expression 

Their expression? Do the Dutch say they're going Dutch?

[Adam]

One suggestion is that the phrase "going Dutch" originates from the concept of a Dutch door. Previously on farmhouses this consisted of two equal parts (Sullivan 2010)[full citation needed].
The Oxford English Dictionary connects "go Dutch" with "Dutch treat" and other phrases many of which have "an opprobrious or derisive application, largely due to the rivalry and enmity between the English and Dutch in the 17th century," the period of the Anglo-Dutch Wars. Another example is "Dutch courage".[1]

[TheoK]

 

[Al Swearegen]

No. If it is illegal to rape a woman THEN unless there is specific exclusions, the law applies to wives as well. Whether courts in a backwards way may choose at any point not to enforce that is another matter.

(ie If the judge preceding over the court has been fed the whole no sex outside of marriage thing all their life and suddenly someone is bringing the complaint of rape, he may (wrongly) disbelieve men would do that to wives (in the same way that Queen Victoria when informed of male and female homosexual sex acts, banned homosexuality between men as a perversion but allowed lesbian sex acts on basis she thought it would not happen and could not bring herself to believe it was a real sexual persuasion and the sex practices true) or he may (also wrongly) say "Oh yuck vaginas..I don't want to hear about what goes in and out of vaginas. I am a sexually repressed man who only ever has sex with my wife in missionary position with lights off and covers on and try not to ever see her naked.")

But this is not the same as "being legal to rape wives". Can you show me where it is legal....actually legal. You make this claim a lot so let's not treat it as a given

[Adam]

No. If it is illegal to rape a woman THEN unless there is specific exclusions, the law applies to wives as well. Whether courts in a backwards way may choose at any point not to enforce that is another matter.

Uh, I think I showed you that there was a specific exclusion and it had been used.

(ie If the judge preceding over the court has been fed the whole no sex outside of marriage thing all their life and suddenly someone is bringing the complaint of rape, he may (wrongly) disbelieve men would do that to wives (in the same way that Queen Victoria when informed of male and female homosexual sex acts, banned homosexuality between men as a perversion but allowed lesbian sex acts on basis she thought it would not happen and could not bring herself to believe it was a real sexual persuasion and the sex practices true) or he may (also wrongly) say "Oh yuck vaginas..I don't want to hear about what goes in and out of vaginas. I am a sexually repressed man who only ever has sex with my wife in missionary position with lights off and covers on and try not to ever see her naked."

Nice ramble

But this is not the same as "being legal to rape wives. Can you should me where it is legal....actually legal. You make this claim a lot si let's not treat it as a given

I've shown you that it was legal for men to rape their wives.