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Author Topic: People's views regarding transpeople  (Read 15363 times)

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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #600 on: April 30, 2011, 01:31:38 AM »
Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(

That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:

I think I would rather be called Dr Al Swearengen Esquire in addressing me from here on Kaleigh and Rissy. Do this and I will happily call you both she
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #601 on: April 30, 2011, 01:40:18 AM »
Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(

That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:

I think I would rather be called Dr Al Swearengen Esquire in addressing me from here on Kaleigh and Rissy. Do this and I will happily call you both she

Would DASE suffice? :zoinks:
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #602 on: April 30, 2011, 01:48:58 AM »
Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(

That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:

I think I would rather be called Dr Al Swearengen Esquire in addressing me from here on Kaleigh and Rissy. Do this and I will happily call you both she

Would DASE suffice? :zoinks:

I know you though and are comfortable with you, so you can call me fucktard and I won't be mortally offended.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline odeon

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #603 on: April 30, 2011, 04:11:05 AM »
Pronouns are used along gender lines, not sexes.

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~phollowa/5sexes.html

http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5sexesrevisited.htm


In terms of non-binary genders there are gender neutral pronoun neologisms. Which I don't personally like or agree with, but if someone asked me to refer to them with a specific set of pronouns I'd do me best.

Considering how old these are, it's pretty obvious that they are not catching on. This thread is the first I have heard of them.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #604 on: April 30, 2011, 04:22:27 AM »
For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.

I disagree, but I don't have the evidence to support me at this point.

Where do those who can't reproduce fall? Are they neither man nor woman? Your definitions and expectations are narrow, and thus follows your mind.

As I tried to explain earlier, mistakes happen all the time when nature does its thing. I would say that the intentions are what define the result, not the result itself. They aren't my definitions, though. It's basic human biology and thus I do have the evidence supporting my views. It's all over teh interwebs if you care to look.

Quote
If you think that is disrespectful then the same will apply equally to you.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

You are trying to force me to use your definitions, or else I am being disrespectful. I know, I know, you aren't literally "forcing" me, but if I insist on the "he" as defined on basic human biology and not some 5-sex theory from an early nineties essay or whatever, or because that's how you feel now, it is me being disrespectful.
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Offline odeon

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #605 on: April 30, 2011, 04:27:36 AM »
Then start backing up your shit.
What do you want backed up? You have to specify which statements you weren't satisfied with?

Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.

A word of advice: don't choose the puppet line of defence re altering the brain because it will make you look daft.

Of course, Al's been asking you to back up the claims you made re trolling and whatnot, and you haven't been doing any of that either.

Mainly, why would you get to define those pronouns when your ideas are based on those of a very small minority?
Don't tl;dr my posts then. I have backed up claims from from Swearengen, it's up to him to flaw my last attempt and if you want to challenge them, you should critique them yourself.

With all due respect, GA is not a woman. He is someone who would like to be one, sure, but that alone does not a woman make. It's not right for people in his situation, nor those sympathetic to them, to hijack the definition just because they want it. Come up with another term, because this one is already consistently defined.
The word wasn't hijacked, it was adapted, and since you object to anything but binary genders as you said earlier, you're giving nothing them. Language changes and new words and made and defined. It's not like there isn't there isn't words with multiple dictionary meaning.
Call me a bad person if you want to, but I am mostly indifferent to the plights of these people. Live and let live, and all that. I will say this, however: I don't have anything per se against the transgendered, but I will also not abuse vocabulary and definitions I see as very well defined as well as reasonably fundamental to human reproductive biology and our society in general.
That is an opinion and a selfish view of yours. You're entitled to it but it's not an argument.

You are being cissexist because you deny transpeoples' gender identity while respecting cispeoples' gender identity. It's minor, but you're still treating them inferior and with disrespect. Some people are against gay marriage without thinking gay people are inferior, they just have a selfish view that gay people shouldn't be allowed to. You can call me disrespectful for not observing your ideas of how everything should be, but so can a nazi. We can both say we don't care about the label thrust upon us. I'm only arguing that your behavior is cissexist, I don't expect you to change your views. If I attack your views, it's for the sake of argument and not because I'm forcing you to accept stuff. If you can object to the use of pronouns by transpeople, I can object to your opinion.
The contributions and the concerns of minorities shouldn't be treated as inferior. Things change. People fight for stuff and get it.

The sky can be pink at one point of the day anyway.

Nazi?

I think there are internet laws explaining what happens to a discussion once the word "nazi" comes up as an argument. Godwin ring a bell to you?

The thing with my views is that they are not just opinions, I have hundreds of years of evolutionary science backing me up. You don't.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Rissy

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #606 on: April 30, 2011, 09:15:29 AM »
Nazi?

I think there are internet laws explaining what happens to a discussion once the word "nazi" comes up as an argument. Godwin ring a bell to you?

The thing with my views is that they are not just opinions, I have hundreds of years of evolutionary science backing me up. You don't.
I'm not calling you a Nazi. I'm saying that anyone can call anyone disrespectful just because they disagree with their views. Even full-out racists. You wanted to highlight that I was being disrespectful too, but that's not an excuse. Of course some people have opposing views, that's life and Kayleigh shouldn't be trying to make you have her point of view. I'm arguing with your argument though. Picking at it to better understand you. This is just chatting to me and I'm exploring your views. Stop putting me in the same category as Kayleigh, I'm not here to preach, I'm only annoyingly critical. I don't expect to change your views and I'm not trying to.
Language has nothing to do with evolution by the way. Language is only applied to things. And it has a habit of changing. You're not speaking old english right now, so you've obviously accepted some changes to the language. And just like religious people pick and choose from the bible, you pick and choose the word definitions you like and reject. This isn't a science argument. It's about language and social issues.

As I tried to explain earlier, mistakes happen all the time when nature does its thing. I would say that the intentions are what define the result, not the result itself. They aren't my definitions, though. It's basic human biology and thus I do have the evidence supporting my views. It's all over teh interwebs if you care to look.
For someone who suggest he's objective and scientific, you sure show signs of divine judgements on what is supposed to be. You didn't answer me about the 'reasons humans are here'. Your evidence supports biological classifications, but not social classifications. The issue is social and about the use of language. Besides, it would be more objective and scientific to be more elaborate in classifying things. It's not very good for distinguishing things. And while human reproduction makes sense, the need and importance of reproduction is simply ego. Society is a cultural environment, not an orgy.

Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(

That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
Well there are individuals who wish to be neuter or bigendered. Most don't use the pronoun 'it', but some do. Pronouns are a personal thing after all, it's used in place of a name. I know you're teasing, but that point is relevant. I suppose I could call Dr Al Swearengen Esquire, Dr Al Swearengen Esquire if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire wants, but then I want my pronoun to be Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust. Do you agree to that Dr Al Swearengen Esquire?
The thing with gender pronouns is that they're already commonly used and they're not so obnoxious to type out or pronounce. And transpeople tell other people what pronoun they want them to use. Using something else is rude and disrespectful. Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and odeon dispute that it isn't botty-burp but cispeople naturally get their choice of gender pronoun respected but transpeople are denied that privilege by some. Treating someone as inferior says more about an individual than thinking they are inferior. If Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and odeon hold the view that they shouldn't be allowed to use their choice of pronoun then Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and odeon consider Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and odeon's views as superior to the respect of transpeople. In reality everyone is disrespectful and consider themselves superior to others in some way.

By last attempt I meant the last reply I made. I wasn't implying that I wasn't going continue rephrasing it for Dr Al Swearengen Esquire. It is possible to troll trolls back. And I already pointed out that the word can be applied to Kayleigh. It does not change the fact that it can also be applied to Dr Al Swearengen Esquire. I was highlighting that section because it's where Dr Al Swearengen Esquire revealed Dr Al Swearengen Esquire's motivation for Dr Al Swearengen Esquire's actions. Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and others were using male pronouns on Kayleigh not necessarily through lack of disrespect to transpeople but to insult and provoke Kayleigh and provoke me since Dr Al Swearengen Esquire pictured me as a white knight. The main example is in reply to Kayleigh because it was all about making her rage quit and such. People can still troll with truth and facts. The fact that Dr Al Swearengen Esquire was attacking her gender instead of her obnoxious traits highlight the fact that Dr Al Swearengen Esquire was not really being serious with her and only wanted to upset her. I was implying that Dr Al Swearengen Esquire wasn't being serious and just being hostile. I admit some of it was due to me misinterpreting Dr Al Swearengen Esquire's posts because Dr Al Swearengen Esquire arguments looked like trollbait. It's hard to tell if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire is serious or if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire is just playing with me. In some way it is true that everyone here is playing with me because I'm a target. But I know that and are looking for serious or interesting topics to be baited by. Although, if I have a target on my head that must mean people do want to troll me. ;)

"And in calling some people cissexist, I only mean to point out offensive behavior"[/i] It really doesn't matter "what you want to do" it is the claims you make that I am calling you on in as much as you call me and others here.

"Compare it to white priveledge or male priveledge or whatever".  OK I looked at you examples to compare

"they still avoid black people and favor white people" We are not avoiding black people or transgender people.

"it had a father proclaimed to like black people but in truth only fetishized black females" We are not fetishising black women or transgender people.

YOU are still not making yourself clear.
Some people are avoiding respecting transpeople, and I'm comparing it to similar examples. Tell me if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire thinks avoiding black people isn't treating them as inferior to white people. Tell me if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire thinks fetishising black people is treating them as equals. I said earlier that with transpeople, it's about respecting their gender indentity and right to choose which pronouns to use. Since they're already in use it's not hard to use them. If the pronoun is derogatory to an individual then the person using the pronoun is being disrespectful. Showing disrespect for the sake of a selfish personal view is obviously your own sense of superiority. Respect is a selfish request to make, but so is disrespect. Obviously some people you don't want to give respect to. But some forms of disrespect to an individual can upset a group by comparison. The members who I'm calling cissexist are the ones who wish to deny people their choice of gender pronoun. Maybe that can be considered cisgenderism because it includes random gender variants. But keeping to the topic of botty-burp, a transperson should be able to have a choice of gender pronoun because cispeople have the choice which they take for granted.

I know I'll never 'win' against Dr Al Swearengen Esquire, I just enjoy participating here. I like the 'Part of the Chaos' title, and my birthday is the 4th  ;)

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #607 on: April 30, 2011, 09:16:21 AM »
 :raining: :raining: :raining: :raining: :raining: :raining: :raining:

Offline Squidusa

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #608 on: April 30, 2011, 09:50:53 AM »
I want my pronoun to be Tentacle Queen

I'm afraid that title is already taken  ;)  :lol:
I'll just diagnose myself as Goddess of the Universe and have done with it. Hell with autism!  :green: :zoinks:

nice is just something written on biscuits.  

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #609 on: April 30, 2011, 10:27:16 AM »
Oh hell I was really avoiding this because you seemed so full of spirit and enthusiasm and were new and I was hoping you would be able to back yourself.

I ran out of excuses.

You made quite a few calls again me and my motivations and my values and despite much gentle persuasion to back yourself, simply have not

Step in this thread and let's talk

http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17358.0.html
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Callaway

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #610 on: April 30, 2011, 10:51:37 AM »
Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(

That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:

 :laugh:

I have a Master's degree, so I want everyone, especially GA and Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust to call me Master Callaway or Callaway, MS for short.  To do otherwise is showing disrespect for all people with graduate degrees and if anyone refuses to call me either Master Callaway or Callaway, MS or if they slip up, I'm going to rage at them and/or bombard them with a lot of PC words and links about the difficulties of graduate school.


Offline Squidusa

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #611 on: April 30, 2011, 11:07:32 AM »
Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(

That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:

 :laugh:

I have a Master's degree, so I want everyone, especially GA and Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust to call me Master Callaway or Callaway, MS for short.  To do otherwise is showing disrespect for all people with graduate degrees and if anyone refuses to call me either Master Callaway or Callaway, MS or if they slip up, I'm going to rage at them and/or bombard them with a lot of PC words and links about the difficulties of graduate school.



Seeing as you are female wouldn't the term be "Mistress" ?  :orly:

Or does that only apply to a dominatrix?  :laugh:
I'll just diagnose myself as Goddess of the Universe and have done with it. Hell with autism!  :green: :zoinks:

nice is just something written on biscuits.  

Offline Callaway

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #612 on: April 30, 2011, 11:09:21 AM »
Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(

That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:

 :laugh:

I have a Master's degree, so I want everyone, especially GA and Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust to call me Master Callaway or Callaway, MS for short.  To do otherwise is showing disrespect for all people with graduate degrees and if anyone refuses to call me either Master Callaway or Callaway, MS or if they slip up, I'm going to rage at them and/or bombard them with a lot of PC words and links about the difficulties of graduate school.



Seeing as you are female wouldn't the term be "Mistress" ?  :orly:

Or does that only apply to a dominatrix?  :laugh:

 :plus:

Offline Squidusa

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #613 on: April 30, 2011, 11:10:55 AM »
Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(

That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:

 :laugh:

I have a Master's degree, so I want everyone, especially GA and Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust to call me Master Callaway or Callaway, MS for short.  To do otherwise is showing disrespect for all people with graduate degrees and if anyone refuses to call me either Master Callaway or Callaway, MS or if they slip up, I'm going to rage at them and/or bombard them with a lot of PC words and links about the difficulties of graduate school.



Seeing as you are female wouldn't the term be "Mistress" ?  :orly:

Or does that only apply to a dominatrix?  :laugh:

 :plus:

so is "Mistress Callaway" your preferred pronoun?  :zoinks:
I'll just diagnose myself as Goddess of the Universe and have done with it. Hell with autism!  :green: :zoinks:

nice is just something written on biscuits.  

Offline odeon

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #614 on: April 30, 2011, 11:24:26 AM »
Nazi?

I think there are internet laws explaining what happens to a discussion once the word "nazi" comes up as an argument. Godwin ring a bell to you?

The thing with my views is that they are not just opinions, I have hundreds of years of evolutionary science backing me up. You don't.
I'm not calling you a Nazi.

You don't have to. Godwin's Law:

Quote
/prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

A little further down on that page:

Quote
More precisely, the subsequent value of the thread is zero. It may be continued anyway - some people will put great effort into explaining why the analogy between Nazis and whatever is annoying them is, on this occasion, fully justified and illuminating. And other people will patiently explain why it isn't and why such comparisons are demeaning to those involved in either event.

You lose.

Quote
I'm saying that anyone can call anyone disrespectful just because they disagree with their views. Even full-out racists. You wanted to highlight that I was being disrespectful too, but that's not an excuse. Of course some people have opposing views, that's life and Kayleigh shouldn't be trying to make you have her point of view. I'm arguing with your argument though. Picking at it to better understand you. This is just chatting to me and I'm exploring your views. Stop putting me in the same category as Kayleigh, I'm not here to preach,

:LMAO:

Quote
I'm only annoyingly critical. I don't expect to change your views and I'm not trying to.
Language has nothing to do with evolution by the way. Language is only applied to things. And it has a habit of changing. You're not speaking old english right now, so you've obviously accepted some changes to the language. And just like religious people pick and choose from the bible, you pick and choose the word definitions you like and reject. This isn't a science argument. It's about language and social issues.

Language changes, sure, but only when there is a need, not because a select few wish it to change. You'd have a better shot at it by being a sports journalist.

Also, when on the topic of science and objective evaluation, it is important to use an unambiguous language to the extent possible. The definitions I choose to follow are well established and have a firm foundation in science. Can you imagine what a biology class would be like if we were to follow your (lack of) definitions?

When discussing science, language is an important tool. I take it you are not dealing with either professionally on a daily basis?

Quote
As I tried to explain earlier, mistakes happen all the time when nature does its thing. I would say that the intentions are what define the result, not the result itself. They aren't my definitions, though. It's basic human biology and thus I do have the evidence supporting my views. It's all over teh interwebs if you care to look.
For someone who suggest he's objective and scientific, you sure show signs of divine judgements on what is supposed to be. You didn't answer me about the 'reasons humans are here'.

I quote:

For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.

"Sorry, Odeon, I was wrong."
"It's OK. You are new, after all."

Quote
Your evidence supports biological classifications, but not social classifications. The issue is social and about the use of language. Besides, it would be more objective and scientific to be more elaborate in classifying things. It's not very good for distinguishing things. And while human reproduction makes sense, the need and importance of reproduction is simply ego. Society is a cultural environment, not an orgy.

On the contrary, the definitions I use are excellent for what they are for, recognising and detailing the human race. They are quite objective--there is no hidden agenda for science to study and describe human biology. The terminology used is there to be objective and unambiguous, to allow us to discuss the subject. If you want to discuss sociology, come up with terms suited for the purpose, but for this, as you say, human reproduction makes sense.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein