People's views regarding transpeople

[odeon]

(I didn't ask Rissy to join I2, I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone tbh)

Ok so there appears to be at least two issues at play here.

First being the misgendering and refusal to use the pronouns I prefer.

Second being my apparent misconduct in explaining my position.


On the first, specifically Odeon's rebuttal that it takes concious effort; A lot of things take conscious effort. Like make allowances for autistic behaviour, and making spaces safe for autistic people. Applying your apparent logic to that would mean no one should really bother to make any allowances for autistic people, or indeed any differently able people because it take a conscious effort for them to do so. It's poor logic.

Conscious effort *here*. Did you deliberately try to generalise the issue? Poor logic, if so.

But then again, you only have to take a quick look at the outside world to see that you are wrong. Most people don't give a shit. They do not make any allowances unless it is in their interest to do so. Don't like it? Tough.

On the second, I don't believe I used emotional manipulation at all. Point out some examples from this thread where I have done so?

This issue is close to me, obviously. And I am engaged in spreading awareness and understanding of the issues, not just for transpeople, but for all diverse sexuality and gender people, and for autism and other disabilities. I'm a bit of an activist in that respect. I believe in knowledge and the reduction of ignorance. Yes I am passionate, and that shows in how I present my arguments. But I have never tried to emotionally manipulate anyone, that would be disingenuous and false conduct and would really undercut the validity of my arguments.

Yet by stating that you'll leave, etc, that's exactly what you are doing, especially when you keep coming back.

Self important blowhard? Self important maybe, but only to the extent that THIS ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT ME. Hard not to be self important in such a situation, I think. Blowhard...I'm not even sure what that means to be honest.

No it's not. Read the thread.

Google will know. "A person who talks too much or too loudly, especially in a boastful or self-important manner". Hrm, I guess that might be accurate, but again, the two main arguments of this thread is about me. "GA is not a woman" "he" and "GA is an arrogant [...]" it's all about me. A bit hard not to be boastful or self-important. Do I talk too much? Possibly. But only in an endeavour to drive my point home.

Those two are the "main" arguments in this thread? The world doesn't revolve around you. Not even this thread.

My aim has always been to educate. Apart from people like Bint or Soph or Hyke, and maybe a few others, you all do seem to lack an understanding of some of issues about trans people. Call that arrogant or whatever, but that is how you appear. And you're only being wilfully ignorant to argue otherwise.

Try listening to what we are saying and maybe you'd get something more out of this thing.

I know, for a fact, that I am ignorant about a great many things. I can accept this, and I can only argue from a position of knowledge, whether actual or assumed.

I would like to thank Farnsworth, Rage, and others for referring to me as she. That's all I've ever asked for really.

I don't understand what I have done against you Odeon, for you to treat me with such disrespect. I've always respected you and thought you were a nice guy.

You might want to consider your part in this. I replied honestly but you did not like my views. Seems you refused to even consider them.

I posted about this thread on my Facebook wall, and two other forums. Excluding the forums as they're populated by trans people, on Facebook, I've had about half a dozen people exclaim surprise and horror at the comments expressed in this thread. Sure they're all friends of mine, but very few of them are as knowledgeable about trans issues as I would prefer. And they can all see how hurtful and disrespectful you've been to me and in some ways Soph.

The larger problem is I don't know how to discern the legitimate opinions from the trolling. So I take it all as serious and respond in kind.

No you don't. You take any disagreements as personal attacks and that is just not true. Go back and read what I said, the post you got your knickers in a twist for, see if there is another way of reading it than your knee-jerk reactions.

[Rissy]

  Stupid computer... I lost my post.
Past history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.

It's late, so I don't have time to rewrite the post I made (And my hand is fractured, forcing me to one hand type) But I wasn't claiming to totally read Swearengen or anything. I was just presenting my basic analysis and perception. It shouldn't be remarkable enough to worry about. And I think you just have trouble understanding the language and tone I use, I haven't been backing out on anything I said. I've just rephrased it hoping for you to understand my meaning better. I consider it to be trolling when you seek to upset someone with irrelevant comments. The fact you admitted to attacking her gender instead of her behavior is where you showed signs of trolling.

You don't have to feel sorry for her or care about transsexualism. You just have to accept her gender, or atleast use female pronouns about her. It's just about being considerate. If you don't care, there's no harm in using female pronouns for the sake of respect. If you have a problem with using respectful pronouns, it's obvious that you DO care and are showing signs of botty-burp. You all seem to hate Kayleigh so obviously she's a poor subject matter, but you just need to live and let live...

Oh... and I guess i'll respond to odean tomorrow <_<

[Adam]

I agree about what Rissy said about being considerate. I understand mistakes being made because of history, but that's no reason to just call her "he" all the time. Especially in a thread ABOUT this, where it's obviously on your mind while you're writing it, so it's not like you need to make a big effort to put "she" instead of "he." If people continue to call her "he" then it seems that they do care.

For example if someone was used to saying "coloured people" when talking about black people, and someone asked them if they'd stop using that term, would it really be that hard to? Obviously pronouncs are much more common, but it's still the same kind of thing. It doesn't take long to get used to callling someone she instead of he. Plenty of people do it with Kayleigh, and I really don't see how it requires that much effort

[bodie]

I just wanted to apologise to Rissy
-  how rude of me,  i forgot to say 

[Rissy]

It is a perfectly simple and reasonable argument. Dismiss someone else's problems as crap and your own problems can be given the exact same treatment. Don't cry about others having an over-inflated sense of importance when you're just as up-yourself. Turning my argument on Kayleigh hasn't stopped it aiming at you too.

Every aspect of language is a social construct. It's out of your character to suggest that there is any divine reason for anything. And just like humans developed religion, they developed the basic, lacking classifications of everything. It was never black and white, it's just human nature to be lazy and not over complicate things. Life messes up all the time, so its not like its all that rare. When things fuck up so frequently, you might as well make room for it. Some cultures do actually have more than two recognized genders. There's more to life than reproduction and you might as well judge people on their actions and not on their make-up. What are you suggesting that transpeople do? The mind is the essence of a person. The body is just tasty meat.

[Celticgoddess]

You don't have to feel sorry for her or care about transsexualism. You just have to accept her gender, or atleast use female pronouns about her. It's just about being considerate. If you don't care, there's no harm in using female pronouns for the sake of respect.

Hmm...this stands out to me because I don't have to do anything and I don't just automatically respect people because I'm told I have to. That has no direct meaning towards the parties at play given I have no issues with Kayleigh and Soph is someone I'm very close to. Having grown up with a friend who was FTM it's something I'm very comfortable about. But comfort, respect, and acceptance have to do specifically with the people involved. Respect is earned and lost as is acceptance for various reasons.

[odeon]

I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard." People throwing around that argument are hypocrites. She was attacked by odean's comment and made an angry reply like anyone would. The fact is, you need to give respect to get respect. That applies to everyone on any subject. If you don't show respect and acknowledgement to an individual, you don't make friends and you make poor precedents of previous behavior next time you want to argue for respect and such from someone else.

The anger was spawned from an offensive comment that was filled with someone else's prejudice and views. So she's only humanly insulted and angry. But I already said I want to discuss this and not be a whiteknight. It's kind of petty picking at words instead of meaning. So why don't people start by presenting their views on transsexualism and why they don't want to respect her choice of pronouns and such.

I doubt you actually want to discuss anything. You are simply here to judge.

[odeon]

I read the whole thread, and I don't remember anyone being "transphobic". I also didnt really see any insulting or hatred going on at all. I think that people should try to be less sensitive and let things roll of their backs. I know that if you went to the hillbilly town I am from, and try to say you are some other gender you are likely to get beat up. THAT is transphobia.

QFT

[odeon]

I don't think people are being transphobic, but maybe maybe a little cissexist.
I don't have a problem with bodaccea's view. Generally transpeople do leave off the 'trans' part, but in a topic like this, you need to differentiate. Odean and Al Swearengen are the ones that are being loudly cissexist.

I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard."

So that hypocrisy means the position is invalid or valid or are you just deflecting?

I'm just saying that you're just throwing out insults, and ones that can easily be turned back on you. It doesn't strike me as an argument, it's just name-calling.

Kayleigh's rage post is an example of disrespect returning to you. It's obviously an angry, emotional reply. She wasn't in the thread until Odean started saying disrespectful things to her. She refined her rage towards you, Odean and Callaway if you read her post. I don't think you and Callaway deserved it at that point, but maybe she was putting rage and arguments too close together. But Odean did deserve the return of disrespect. Rage posts are obviously immature, but it's not like she didn't have a point amongst it. This thread does have a point though, and you seem too busy hating people for personal reasons to talk about it at all. I'm mostly trying to turn it back into a discussion instead of irrelevantly attacking each other on petty details. Odean might of upset Kayleigh, but at the same time, he was giving his opinion in a way that was on topic.
I'm sure we can all face the facts, it's better to stay level headed in a discussion and getting emotional and angry just leads to meaningless bickering. I agree that her post was bitchy, but I'm finding a lot of your posts in this thread no better. Feel free to say that I'm disrespectful and such, but I'd rather get on topic and discuss the topic. There's definitely some cissexist vibes and that's what the thread is about.
Don't complain about my arguments when yours are summed up as botty-burp while denying botty-burp, which happens to be this thread's topic.

First of all, it's Odeon, not "Odean". Second, you are repeating yourself without ever getting to what the nature of my "attack" was, what those disrespectful things I said were. Third, I2 is the place where you are supposed to back up your words. Did you ever take the time to find out what we are about before rushing here to judge?

[earthboundmisfit]

You all seem to hate Kayleigh so obviously she's a poor subject matter, but you just need to live and let live...

To be fair, that has nothing to do with gender or transsexualism.

[Adam]

Obviously getting beaten up for being trans is worse. But I still think there are forms of transphobia that don't involve violence. I mean people can still be racist and homophobic without actually punching someone or killng them

[odeon]

Someone make an argument how swearengen and odean aren't being cissexist or make pro-botty-burp comments. Right now I just see trolling. I'm going to assume I'm winning this argument if no one makes a proper argument.   

Guilty until proven innocent?

I think you are a twat and until you prove you aren't I'm clearly winning this argument.

[odeon]

I don't understand the concept of male and female being just about sexual characteristics. If they were dependent of your ability to, and role in reproduction, I could understand. But infertile or deformed people still have gender placed on them. And gender labeling is used for social purposes rather than sexual purposes.

Did you actually read and understand what I wrote? Not every member of the species will be able to reproduce, for various reasons, but nevertheless, the process of reproducing is the whole point. It's a binary thing, as you said, and you don't actually get to redefine that. You can say that you've always felt like a man or a woman and that's perfectly all right. You can't, however, change the definition to suit you because biologically it just won't be true.

Consider that botty-burp? Fine. You'll find that quite a few scientists researching the topic are equally "disrespectful".

How is that disrespectful, though? How is it disrespectful of me to refuse to accept that you wish to change those definitions, not because of any relevance to the basic science behind but because you wish to broaden the definition to allow for a tiny minority without the necessary biological qualifications?

I could say it's rather disrespectful of you to try to force your definitions on me.

But generally botty-burp is about disrespect and discrimination against transpeople. Transphobia tends to be more about violence and more serious things. I do think it's cissexist if you can't respect pronouns of others. Struggling with them are okay, but if you're not acknowledging someones identity, it's offensive and hurtful. I compared it to autism before because some people seem to think asperger's is crap too. I mean saying that transpeople are deluded is definitely insulting. And some people are kind of saying it is.

Deluded? I have certainly not said anything of the kind.

BTW, I compared it to autism before you even joined. Do try to catch up.

[Adam]

Did you actually read and understand what I wrote? Not every member of the species will be able to reproduce, for various reasons, but nevertheless, the process of reproducing is the whole point. It's a binary thing, as you said, and you don't actually get to redefine that. You can say that you've always felt like a man or a woman and that's perfectly all right. You can't, however, change the definition to suit you because biologically it just won't be true.

Consider that botty-burp? Fine. You'll find that quite a few scientists researching the topic are equally "disrespectful".

How is that disrespectful, though? How is it disrespectful of me to refuse to accept that you wish to change those definitions, not because of any relevance to the basic science behind but because you wish to broaden the definition to allow for a tiny minority without the necessary biological qualifications?

I could say it's rather disrespectful of you to try to force your definitions on me.

I think this is bullshit myself (and yes, you are free to see it that way, I'm not trying to forcfe you to change that)

Man and woman are different to male and female. Saying someone is a woman doesn't mean they're saying they're biologically female. Obviously that is usually the case, but with someone who is a pre-op MTF, I can still view them as a woman and that doesn't mean I'm saying theyre biologically female

I mean if I was having a scientific discussion with someone, I wouldn't use the terms "man and woman" any more than I'd use "boy and girl." They're bot about biology imo. If I walk down the road, I see men and women, I have no idea if they've got a penis, ovaries, XX, XY, vagina, whatever.

[odeon]

Obviously getting beaten up for being trans is worse. But I still think there are forms of transphobia that don't involve violence. I mean people can still be racist and homophobic without actually punching someone or killng them

Yes, quite possibly, but I have yet to see any of it here.