People's views regarding transpeople

[Adam]

I didn't tthink you actually seriously expected an answer, sorry - No, I probably couldn't choose to become socially conservative. But again, that's beside the point

Whether you can see it or not, it is exactly on point.  It is just as difficult (or impossible) for a religious Muslim to change their world view as it is for you to change yours.  You will want to argue about which world view is "right" or more intellectual or where the view comes from or how it is formed, but these are all irrelevant points when it comes down to changing them.  If we admit that these views are unlikely to change, how are they any less inherent to the person than their gender or sexuality?

In THAT sense it is not different. i don't think I've been saying muslims can just switch their beliefs on or off, so not sure why you're going on about this

The point is that it still says something about who that person is. Regardless of the fact that it's just as hard to choose, it is still not set from birth for example. I mean you're not born believing in god. Religion is the same as politics in this respect

[Adam]

Sorry, I'm not explainining myself well here, watching the football at the same time

I will rewrite that later. although there probably isn't much point as none of us are gonna change our views on this

[midlifeaspie]

i don't think I've been saying muslims can just switch their beliefs on or off, so not sure why you're going on about this

Doesn't this define your difference between "what a person is and who a person is"?

The point is that it still says something about who that person is. Regardless of the fact that it's just as hard to choose, it is still not set from birth for example. I mean you're not born believing in god. Religion is the same as politics in this respect

I believe that I was born a liberal.  I believe that it is absolutely impossible for me to be anything different.  I can see how someone who is religious can feel the same way.

[odeon]

OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion

I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right?  (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)

So, you feel it is possible for you to choose your political persuasion?  If you wanted to you could become a social conservative?

It's not about choice here - it's about whether it is WHO a person is or WHAT a person is. Someone's political or religious beliefs say somethign about WHO they are.

You are tellign me you don't judge someone if they are a nazi?

GA's fanaticism about something he probably should be a little more secure about tells me a lot about WHO he is.

That's her individually though. Like I've said already, there's nothing wrong with criticising a person for their beliefs or views or how they act. That's not transphobia.

Also, while I personally think she is actually pretty secure now bout how she is, it wouldn't be surprising for a trans person to be insecure imo, given how it is treated by society

As with most other groups mistreated by society in one form or another. You are perfectly fine with a trans individual acting as a cunt and being criticised as suc, but you have trouble allowing individual Muslims to act like cunts without condemning the group as a whole.

Not always but I've seen you make those sweeping generalisations often enough. I have also called you out on them.

[Adam]

i don't think I've been saying muslims can just switch their beliefs on or off, so not sure why you're going on about this

Doesn't this define your difference between "what a person is and who a person is"?

The point is that it still says something about who that person is. Regardless of the fact that it's just as hard to choose, it is still not set from birth for example. I mean you're not born believing in god. Religion is the same as politics in this respect

I believe that I was born a liberal.  I believe that it is absolutely impossible for me to be anything different.  I can see how someone who is religious can feel the same way.

OK I actually kinda agree with you there though. But technically I think that can be said of EVERYTHING.

I still see a difference between opinions and beliefs (which imo can be attacked) and sex and ethnicity (which are completely irrelevant when it comes to who a person is.

What I mean is, you take Person X out of their family environment, out of their home environment, their culture, their country. And place them somewhere totally differnet. Their sex, gender, sexuality, skin colour etc will all be exactly the same. Their beliefs and opinions (part of what makes them who they are) will change though. They will still be more inclined towards progressive views or traditional views, yeah. But the exact views will still be different

[Adam]

As with most other groups mistreated by society in one form or another. You are perfectly fine with a trans individual acting as a cunt and being criticised as suc, but you have trouble allowing individual Muslims to act like cunts without condemning the group as a whole.

Not always but I've seen you make those sweeping generalisations often enough. I have also called you out on them.

That's not true at all. If you want to critisize GA for how she acts or what she says, go ahead. That's no different to criticising a non-trans person for the same thing.

And yes I've posted a lot of stupid generalisations about muslims  (although not recently), but I always assumed it was obvious I was taking the piss with my islam/fat/american trolling. I don't seriously think the muslim girl I sit with in lectures is gonna come in one day and blow us up, or the Catholic in my family is secretly abusing his neighbour's kid.

Once I realised people really did think I was being serious, I actually stopped that kinda piss-taking and don't think I've done it (except possibly the odd joke-post, but a lot of members do that and I do it about trans stuff too) for quite a while

[odeon]

So tell me, what is the difference between piss-taking when it comes to Muslims and piss-taking when it comes to trans persons? And how will the target know?

[odeon]

And yes I've posted a lot of stupid generalisations about muslims  (although not recently), but I always assumed it was obvious I was taking the piss with my islam/fat/american trolling. I don't seriously think the muslim girl I sit with in lectures is gonna come in one day and blow us up, or the Catholic in my family is secretly abusing his neighbour's kid.

Sorry but it was not obvious at all. And in any case you could have said so any time in stead of letting the bloody thing go on.

[Adam]

What target? There are no muslims on here, which is the precise reason I did the muslim stuff more than tha christian stuff. If a muslim person joined then I would have toned it down

I'm pretty sure I DID explain at least a few times that I was fucking around. And I know a couple other people pointed it out too. I'm not gonna add on the end of every stupid post I make "Disclaimer: this may not be serious" just because you don't have the same sense of humour

And AGAIN, the difference is between who someone is and what someone is. Haven't I said that already?

[midlifeaspie]

I don't believe I could have developed conservative views regardless of my upbringing.  My whole family is very conservative.

[Semicolon]

What target? There are no muslims on here, which is the precise reason I did the muslim stuff more than tha christian stuff. If a muslim person joined then I would have toned it down

I'm pretty sure I DID explain at least a few times that I was fucking around. And I know a couple other people pointed it out too. I'm not gonna add on the end of every stupid post I make "Disclaimer: this may not be serious" just because you don't have the same sense of humour

And AGAIN, the difference is between who someone is and what someone is. Haven't I said that already?

Could you personally choose to believe in God?

[odeon]

And AGAIN, the difference is between who someone is and what someone is. Haven't I said that already?

Several times. It's just that I don't buy it.

[midlifeaspie]

What target? There are no muslims on here, which is the precise reason I did the muslim stuff more than tha christian stuff. If a muslim person joined then I would have toned it down

I'm pretty sure I DID explain at least a few times that I was fucking around. And I know a couple other people pointed it out too. I'm not gonna add on the end of every stupid post I make "Disclaimer: this may not be serious" just because you don't have the same sense of humour

And AGAIN, the difference is between who someone is and what someone is. Haven't I said that already?

Could you personally choose to believe in God?

Another equally good question.

[Adam]

lol omg. It's not that you can't "choose to believe in god or not"

Can a racist person "choose" to be a non-racist person?

It is still an aspect of WHO they are as a person.

And yes MLA, I sid that in my post - you'd still have inclinations the same way, but your specific beliefs and views would be different

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

Well opinions can be changed over time if circumstances are favorable for it, including accepting new perspectives.

But my only issue is that, when politically correct types confront people with passive-aggressive nonsense like condensension and pretentiousness to present an opinion, it only aims to further alienate people away from listening (or forces them to comply in submission, still resentful). It makes it worse when this is applied with allegations of bigotry towards anyone who may not share their views exactly on the subject they hold dearly. People are not very receptive to having others tell them they're something bad over very minor provocations; because the attitude belittles people needlessly and reflects the same attitude of bigotry. People are much more receptive to someone who can understand that a middle ground must be reached before encouraging a new opinion to be adopted, or at least thought about. To see a person who's casual and rather light-hearted and fun to talk to has a greater success of having people reconsider their attitudes, than someone preaching down their throat and bitching "oh woe is me" when things don't go exactly as planned.

I think once people start to realise this, reconciling is then possible.