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Author Topic: OK, Let's do it again. Why do you Brits have such retarded, faggotty gun laws?  (Read 19943 times)

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Offline FourAceDeal

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Quote from: Pappy

I'm betting the next major massacre will occur in France or Belgium, by Islamic terrorists, despite their strict gun control.  :hahaha:

Does 8 dead count as major, or do we have to define major more precisely?
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Offline Parts

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Quote from: Pappy

I'm betting the next major massacre will occur in France or Belgium, by Islamic terrorists, despite their strict gun control.  :hahaha:

Does 8 dead count as major, or do we have to define major more precisely?

If your talking about Ohio I would not put that is the same category as a school or spree type shooting
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Quote from: Pappy

I'm betting the next major massacre will occur in France or Belgium, by Islamic terrorists, despite their strict gun control.  :hahaha:

Does 8 dead count as major, or do we have to define major more precisely?

If your talking about Ohio I would not put that is the same category as a school or spree type shooting

Do you not think that having so many incidents of multiple gun deaths that you feel the need to categorise them is not in some way indicative of having something of a problem?
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Offline Parts

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Quote from: Pappy

I'm betting the next major massacre will occur in France or Belgium, by Islamic terrorists, despite their strict gun control.  :hahaha:

Does 8 dead count as major, or do we have to define major more precisely?

If your talking about Ohio I would not put that is the same category as a school or spree type shooting

Do you not think that having so many incidents of multiple gun deaths that you feel the need to categorise them is not in some way indicative of having something of a problem?

I categorize everything so I don't view doing that is indicative of anything other than my OCD tendencies.  I feel the problem is more along the lines of people thinking that violent behavior is a way to solve their problems  guns just happen to be convenient.  Until peoples attitudes towards violence change things like this will still happen guns or no guns.
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
George Bernard Shaw

Offline Jack

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Homicide circumstances are categorized, sub-categorized, sub-sub-categorized, cross referenced and sub-cross referenced, and pivoted for analysis in a multitude of ways. This is why people are able to prove multiple causations, focus on the data sets they find most applicable to their own viewpoint, and they can all be perfectly correct in some way according to the numbers while having different answers and never agreeing. Agree with parts that cultural attitudes are too easily dismissed as it leaves the debate lacking numbers. US culture has both state sanctioned and citizen sanctioned homicide rights which are not necessarily present in all other cultures, when it is not only legal but socially acceptable to kill people. Even within an illegal context, there are circumstances when the general public, or subsets within the public, will find circumstances of homicide to not only be justified but also just. These cultural justifications have a broad rage from protective, racial, economic, and political.

Offline FourAceDeal

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So gun deaths are caused by many number of things but not the easy availability of guns...
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Offline Jack

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Found that graph yet? Seriously, personally would prefer to be on your side of the debate, but there's nothing to be found which directly connects the availability of firearms to homicide rates in any logical way. If so, the US would by far have the highest homicide rates in the world. Frankly, the only valid homicide argument ever seen based in reliable data is an economic debate. The only one that ever came close to economics is a racial debate, but it's hard to debate race without considering economics so tend to view racial crime stats as crap too. Personally view certain cultures as simply having more respect for human life than other cultures. That's actually a more harsh indictment than focusing on a country's weapons of choice, but have to consider it's more likely to be true.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 03:06:19 PM by Jack »

Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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So gun deaths are caused by many number of things but not the easy availability of guns...

Even if you were to illegalize them here in the US, they would still be easy to get because a thriving black market would appear, just like it did with the prohibition of alcohol.

We have a very porous border with Mexico and there's machinists like me who could make guns out of their garage.

Offline Lestat

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There is one thing I have a theory might well have a lot to do with it.

The fact that we live in a tyranny, or at best, a fascist govt in anything but name. Those who wish to retain a stranglehold on power, do not, usually, have a very welcoming view on outside forces having such a force multiplier. It could be used against them far too easily. Treat people like idiots, rob them blind, and then ask them to believe its for our own good? that isn't really what I'd think of as a winning strategy in a popularity contest. Act like a prick, someone, somewhere is going to REALIZE your a prick. And act accordingly.'they' in this context, meaning government. heck you don't really need to, someone somewhere is going to hate you, no matter what. You can't please everybody, all the time, especially when said everybody have a large number of widely differing views as to what constitutes prickdom.

But its backfired really I think. No pun intended. Because when owning a firearm, with no regard to its end use by the owner, simple uncomplicated ownership, is 'criminal' then
ONLY the criminal elements will have guns. Not the white collar crooks, but the vicious, bloodthirsty thugs who will USE them against people.  owned several in the past, does it equate to having used them in the comission of murder or robbery? no. It doesn't. In this case, its equated to putting dinner on the table sometimes, when otherwise there would have been a bare table for the next month.

I mean by criminal elements, the thug wannabes, eastern european gangsters, ragheads on the rampage. Whilst old ladies who's (quite unaware of) now dead husband's antiqeu service revolver from WWII get taken to court and threatened with or sent to prison because it was found by filth in a drawer? not only that but threatened with a decade inside PER ROUND, in addition to penalty for the gun having been there? does that sound like justice to anyone? I remember reading about that case, in the paper a whlie back.some OAP lady got busted, dragged through the courts, and left with a record because of that. All because their husband retained their service revolver (question-weren't they GIVEN to british officers who had seen their service out?) and been so inconsiderate of jonny law and the govt as to die without handing it in.

And it more or less makes certain that any incident like the paris attacks, or the recent incident in belgium WILL end up as a bloodbath, because there is almost certain to be nobody packing. Meanwhile the gangbangers without either the contacts to buy a gun, or sufficient skills to go and build something a bit more....high-tech than a powder-based firearm, like PIKLs/PEPs, ECT guns, coil/rail based gauss weapons, chemical munitions, that kind of thing go out and shank some innocent party for their wallet.
If you AREN'T a thug, then there is much much less chance to begin with that the owner of a firearm will use it in such a way, or indeed, use violence at all, outside the realms of either self defense against such a threat or hunting. To whit, how many poncy toff bellends do you see switching from grouse hunting to predator sport hunting for human skulls? If that weren't true then everyone has access to knives here, and pretty much everywhere else, but you don't see people of good nature, engaging in that sort of behaviour BECAUSE they are not of a violent thuggish nature. I've only ever once drawn a blade in anger against someone, and even then, it was used to disarm the katana being swung my way, and it was my FIST, not my blade, that then got used to put the one wielding the other sword down.Dropped with a punch in the face, not sliced to pieces.or stabbed, although of course I could have chosen to were that my nature or inclination. It isn't, so it wasn't. I expect this is a generality rather than a personal character trait applicably to myself only.
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Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Frankly, the only valid homicide argument ever seen based in reliable data is an economic debate.

Actually, the only statistic that I've heard of that is linked to crime is abortion rates. As abortion rates go up, crime goes down.

That was discovered by the  economists who wrote the book Freakonomics.

Offline Jack

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Haven't ever seen that about abortion rates. There's definitely government stats available linking crime to income levels, and within the context of non-lethal violent crime, income analysis appears to discredit the racial debate.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 02:24:56 PM by Jack »

Offline Lestat

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Other that pro-lifers bombing up abortion clinics:P

But hey, it does make sense (what pappy said, not blowing up abortion clinics I mean) sort of at least. But those that get aborted as a foetus don't typically go on many crime sprees.
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Offline Gopher Gary

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Offline Jack

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So gun deaths are caused by many number of things but not the easy availability of guns...

Even if you were to illegalize them here in the US, they would still be easy to get because a thriving black market would appear, just like it did with the prohibition of alcohol.

We have a very porous border with Mexico and there's machinists like me who could make guns out of their garage.
The idea of accessibility sounds really good in theory, and makes sense because fewer guns must mean fewer gun related killings; that sounds good. However when looking at UK stats for firearm related homicide rates, those graphs look similar to the general homicide graphs. It would appear fewer guns not only hasn't improved the homicide rate, but also hasn't improved gun related homicide rates. Though to be fair, can only find UK gun homicide stats which date to 2011 so maybe there's something in the last few years am not seeing which has some notable variation to the homicide rates as a whole.

Offline odeon

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Found that graph yet? Seriously, personally would prefer to be on your side of the debate, but there's nothing to be found which directly connects the availability of firearms to homicide rates in any logical way.

Does this count?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/
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