Is it all about being right?

[Al Swearegen]

I don't believe that you can accurately gauge who on this forum is whose intellectual superior.
That said I believe you are smarter than me Callaway.
I think that there has been probably 3 or 4 occasions that I have disagreed with you and said so. Maybe about the same with Odeon.
I have no problem with disagreeing with you or Odeon or anyone on this site. I (as seen with Odeon) have no problems with calling out anyone if I believe in whatever strongly. I am not intimidated by anyone here and IQ or not withstanding, Pyraxis do you think I am hopelessly outgunned going up against Odeon or Callaway because of my lower IQ?
Do you think I was on the last callout I did?

[Scrapheap]

@Sir Les - yeah that's true, it would suck worse if the admins weren't smart. But the dogpiling of Richard was ridiculous.

Richard brought that dogpiling upon himself. All he had to do was shut his mouth and he couldn't manage to accomplish THAT. 

[Pyraxis]

Heaven forbid we should be smarter than someone who repeatedly accuses us

He said he was "still bothered" by it and "still wondering". You took that as an accusation serious enough to come out with all guns blazing?

of some ridiculous wrongdoing, contrary to all the evidence otherwise.

And when all the evidence is disregarded for apparently irrational reasons, the solution is totally to: (sarcasm alert)
repeat that you think they're wrong
call out perceived flaws in their character (incidentally one of the tactics which leads people to conclude you're high and mighty and ought to be held to a higher standard)
...repeatedly...

Yeah ok. A couple of kids on the playground pointing fingers at each other and shouting "He did it!" "She did it!" ... so there are still lulz.

But what exactly does continuing to shout accomplish, beyond entertainment for the rest of us? Are you still trying to defend your wounded pride at having someone not believe you're right?

I think if someone calls me out, they have to accept the risk that comes with that.  I'm not going to "tie half my brain behind my back" to make things more equal if I believe the person has a lower IQ than mine.  Nor would I expect someone I called out to do that for me if their IQ was higher than mine.

I started out giving Richard the benefit of the doubt and I looked in the mod log to help him figure out what might have happened but I'm not about to admit that I did something I didn't do.  Short of that, I don't know what I could have done to end the argument when he decided to call me out again over something we had already resolved the first time.

Howzabout using a different region of your brain than the hypothalamus to understand that nobody was really going to think the worse of you for walking away? That wouldn't have meant admitting to something you didn't do - it was clear to the majority of people reading the thread that you didn't do it. Even if you were sticking around because you wanted to convince Richard you didn't do it... well since your attempts to re-establish meaningful communication weren't working, even when you quit with the character attacks, that only goes to back up the idea that letting it go for a while might help.

I guess we should all follow Pyraxis' example in her callout with Lucifer and make sure we call out or are called out only by people who are our intellectual superiors.

It does keep life more interesting. But it's not just who's smarter than who, also the degree of the difference. I think I went after Lucifer at one point for that too, but I can't remember if it was in that callout. Basically beating up on the crippled because she didn't have the balls to go after anyone who could fight back. It's like she hadn't noticed that she herself wasn't crippled.

But the other question I think you're asking...

I guess we should all follow Pyraxis' example in her callout with Lucifer and make sure we call out or are called out only by people who are our intellectual superiors.

I wish I were skilled enough that I were worth following. But if you followed me, you'd probably get your butt beaten around and live in a state of perpetual fear and all you'd have to show for it is some slippery ideal of transcending things I don't even have words for in the name of honor. It's safer and possibly richer to stay put and do your best to make a home among people who don't pose much danger, and that's something I know very little about. Hence my awkward attempts here to encourage it without really having a good picture of what I'm shooting for.

[Pyraxis]

I have no problem with disagreeing with you or Odeon or anyone on this site. I (as seen with Odeon) have no problems with calling out anyone if I believe in whatever strongly. I am not intimidated by anyone here and IQ or not withstanding, Pyraxis do you think I am hopelessly outgunned going up against Odeon or Callaway because of my lower IQ?
Do you think I was on the last callout I did?

No actually I think you did a damn good job of presenting your case, and it ended pretty well all things considered.

[odeon]

Difference with this place and most other places with "leaders" is that they're not really leaders. I dunno about Callaway, but I'm pretty sure that odeon just posts as any other member would do (except when he's doing admin stuff obviously). I mean I don't think he views himself as some kind of leader of a community as such, so shouldn't have any more expectations placed on him than anyone else posting here

I agree though about admins having access to parts of the system that others can't use. That's pretty unfair if used in a callout, but we can't exactly open everything up to the whole membership

Admins shouldn't be required to behave any "better" than anyone else when challenged imo

True.

I tend to post as any other member would. I comment and I spam and I sometimes actually think before posting, but I expect the same standards to be applied to me and my posts as anyone else's. If I think someone is a cunt or a moron, I will tell them so. After all, if others can do it, then why can't I if I think it's warranted?

I'm no more right or wrong than anyone else. People can, and should, challenge my views whenever they disagree or think I am being a cunt. Or they could simply ignore me and keep posting what they want to post. That works too.


Because that, Pyraxis, is a big part of how this place can enable people. You can say your piece here, without having to watch your tongue or wonder how to follow unspoken rules. Sure, people will fight back but isn't that the point? Sure, some have greater language skills than others but what would you expect us to do about that? Censor ourselves? Only use two-syllable words?

Why should this place be different for us?

I still think I2 enables spazzes by allowing us to argue and learn how to fight back without the false safety of a WP where you are constantly being patted on the head, monitored, and stopped not if you break the TOS but when you cross an often arbitrary line drawn by a mod or Alex himself?

I2 also enables spazzes by creating a space where people can post pretty much what they want, as long as they don't stop anyone else from doing so. It's not absolute freedom of speech but then again, what is? Freedom of speech comes at a cost, and I think I2's is a pretty realistic version of it.

In addition to being a member, I also have two other functions. One, I'm a webmaster and see to it that you can all keep posting, and two, I pay the bills to keep us online. I don't want or expect special treatment because of those things, but I do want everyone to follow what rules there are (mainly, Hostgator's TOS) to make sure we can stay online. Hostgator is forgiving in some respects and less than so in others, but all in all, they offer a reasonable compromise and I don't see a reason to move.

Problem is, here's where some people's paranoias set in. They see conspiracies and power trips instead of a job description more like a janitor's, and some think that I have an unfair advantage and thus shouldn't be allowed to behave the same as others. As is the case with my linguistic abilities, just because I do have a way with words, they say that because I have access to an admin panel I should take my responsibility and, well, not post what's on my mind. I should act according to the perceived sensitivities of others, perceived not always by those being targeted but by others.

Guess what? It's not going to happen. I don't keep this place online so that Pyraxis and some others can do what she thinks I shouldn't be allowed to.

[odeon]

@Sir Les - yeah that's true, it would suck worse if the admins weren't smart. But the dogpiling of Richard was ridiculous.

Dogpiling of Richard? FFS, Sir Les said I was doing pretty much the opposite but we managed to sort that out. I have *not* treated Richard differently from anyone else.

[DirtDawg]

Callaways advantage is not so much as being an admin but her use of the search feature and anyone can use that. 

That's a good point actually. Callaway gets her reputation because she's good at her research, which is nothing to do with her position

I once referred to her as Teh Librarian of tEh Internet or what ever the fuck it was at the time.

She has talent in searching properly. This is truly a super power when accessing an historic database.

[DirtDawg]

I don't believe that you can accurately gauge who on this forum is whose intellectual superior.
That said I believe you are smarter than me Callaway.
I think that there has been probably 3 or 4 occasions that I have disagreed with you and said so. Maybe about the same with Odeon.
I have no problem with disagreeing with you or Odeon or anyone on this site. I (as seen with Odeon) have no problems with calling out anyone if I believe in whatever strongly. I am not intimidated by anyone here and IQ or not withstanding, Pyraxis do you think I am hopelessly outgunned going up against Odeon or Callaway because of my lower IQ?
Do you think I was on the last callout I did?

I would expect that if an argument is purely logical, then many of those with limited, but adequate intelligence, may have an advantage, due to the fact that they may have the ability to see and focus mainly upon their own goal, while those of annoyingly superior intelligence tend to over think the simplest of issues, often introducing peripheral concerns that can lead to their defeat.

 

['andersom']

In the case of Richard, it may have been all about being right.
But, from the side of Richard mainly.

There have been attempts to come to other explanations of why he had himself on ignore. But, for him, no matter what, it kept being a necessity that someone had to be blamed. That's where the whole discussion got stuck.

Was it to be avoided?

I fear not. Seems his mind was set to find a scapegoat.

Are there ways it could have happened without anyone being to blame? Could be, but I don't think there was freedom to think in other ways than in terms of guilty or not guilty.

Had this freedom been there, it could have led to interesting speculation in the glitches department. Maybe even with experiments. But, there had to be someone who was to blame. And that was what the debate kept focussing on, not on what could have happened.

And, alas, I don't think Richard could let that idea of someone to blame go. Alas for Richard too. And even if admins and other members had decided to ignore that, and had decided to look for other options, the mindset to find blame was there, and that was not going to change I think.


Apart from the case of Richard.


Are a lot of callouts here nothing but, creative or not creative mudslinging? Yeah, sure. Not all though. I did like the one between Odeon and Sir_Les a lot for example.


Are debates IQ things? Sometimes, but IQ is one thing, what you do with it is another. Some of the most impressive things I have heard came from people who are considered to have an IQ below average. And in callouts here, it isn't always the "smartest" who makes the most sensible comments.


Some members may need protection sometimes, yeah, true too. ZEGH jesting about having had a mild warning not to bully Razorbeard is an example that that does happen here too.


Is there trust needed on a board. Yeah, to make sure you dare to post what you want to say. For me, there is no difference in validity of online or off line relationships. And yes, that means that I can get hurt online as well as off line. So be it. And, I do have some trust in the members here. Some I like, some I do not like or dislike, a few I don't like at all. But, that's a very few.

And Callaway, I don't know much about Callaway, but, her memory is phenomenal, her posts often have a kind of detachedness, not being 'emotionally' involved, more factual. Not better or worse than posts of others, but, different. And, sometimes that changes, and it always comes as a surprise to me. It took a while, but, in the end, being pissed off with Richard did show. And there have been moments where her posts showed a clear "on edge" both in answering Py and in answering Eclair. Is that the real Callaway, and the other isn't? I don't buy that. It's all the real Callaway. Takes longer for her to show or have this 'emotional' involvement. Doesn't mean that she's not real, or better or worse than real when she is not showing that.



So, come loose cts from me. Don't think it is exactly two cts.

[Callaway]

Heaven forbid we should be smarter than someone who repeatedly accuses us

He said he was "still bothered" by it and "still wondering". You took that as an accusation serious enough to come out with all guns blazing?

of some ridiculous wrongdoing, contrary to all the evidence otherwise.

And when all the evidence is disregarded for apparently irrational reasons, the solution is totally to: (sarcasm alert)
repeat that you think they're wrong
call out perceived flaws in their character (incidentally one of the tactics which leads people to conclude you're high and mighty and ought to be held to a higher standard)
...repeatedly...

Yeah ok. A couple of kids on the playground pointing fingers at each other and shouting "He did it!" "She did it!" ... so there are still lulz.

But what exactly does continuing to shout accomplish, beyond entertainment for the rest of us? Are you still trying to defend your wounded pride at having someone not believe you're right?

I think if someone calls me out, they have to accept the risk that comes with that.  I'm not going to "tie half my brain behind my back" to make things more equal if I believe the person has a lower IQ than mine.  Nor would I expect someone I called out to do that for me if their IQ was higher than mine.

I started out giving Richard the benefit of the doubt and I looked in the mod log to help him figure out what might have happened but I'm not about to admit that I did something I didn't do.  Short of that, I don't know what I could have done to end the argument when he decided to call me out again over something we had already resolved the first time.

Howzabout using a different region of your brain than the hypothalamus to understand that nobody was really going to think the worse of you for walking away? That wouldn't have meant admitting to something you didn't do - it was clear to the majority of people reading the thread that you didn't do it. Even if you were sticking around because you wanted to convince Richard you didn't do it... well since your attempts to re-establish meaningful communication weren't working, even when you quit with the character attacks, that only goes to back up the idea that letting it go for a while might help.

I guess we should all follow Pyraxis' example in her callout with Lucifer and make sure we call out or are called out only by people who are our intellectual superiors.

It does keep life more interesting. But it's not just who's smarter than who, also the degree of the difference. I think I went after Lucifer at one point for that too, but I can't remember if it was in that callout. Basically beating up on the crippled because she didn't have the balls to go after anyone who could fight back. It's like she hadn't noticed that she herself wasn't crippled.

But the other question I think you're asking...

I guess we should all follow Pyraxis' example in her callout with Lucifer and make sure we call out or are called out only by people who are our intellectual superiors.

I wish I were skilled enough that I were worth following. But if you followed me, you'd probably get your butt beaten around and live in a state of perpetual fear and all you'd have to show for it is some slippery ideal of transcending things I don't even have words for in the name of honor. It's safer and possibly richer to stay put and do your best to make a home among people who don't pose much danger, and that's something I know very little about. Hence my awkward attempts here to encourage it without really having a good picture of what I'm shooting for.

Richard called me out, saying that he was "still wondering" long after we had already resolved the issue.  I didn't call him out.  Even so, I think I started out being polite to him, merely reminding him that we had already resolved it and linking him to the evidence I had shown him before.  I believe I continued being polite despite Richard's continuing personal attacks about my honesty, my character, etc, until he went after Parts, calling him "doopy".

I believe Richard opened himself up for the question concerning his massive consumption of alcohol as evidenced by the huge number of beer cans on his kitchen counter when he called Parts "doopy" and implied that Parts was unreliable because of it.


I don't think I was using my hypothalamus in the call-out.  I think I was using my hippocampus and cerebral cortex.

You seem to be saying that due to our superior verbal skills, Odeon and I should be using kid gloves to deal with someone with like Richard, but since when do you think that Intensity's administrators should act like high school guidance counselors?  Not that long ago, you were complaining that Intensity was too accomodating to the "sensitive" people, and you wanted to have it the other way around.  Have you changed your mind now?

You leveled against Lucifer a lot of nebulous, vague allegations which were unproveable (IMO) even with your posting of old chat logs of some chats you were not even a party to.  I brought it up because for some reason, I'm feeling strongly reminded of that call-out now.

[Al Swearegen]

I have no problem with disagreeing with you or Odeon or anyone on this site. I (as seen with Odeon) have no problems with calling out anyone if I believe in whatever strongly. I am not intimidated by anyone here and IQ or not withstanding, Pyraxis do you think I am hopelessly outgunned going up against Odeon or Callaway because of my lower IQ?
Do you think I was on the last callout I did?

No actually I think you did a damn good job of presenting your case, and it ended pretty well all things considered.

By your rationale though it would not be a contest of equals. Odeon is smarter than me and has a higher IQ to prove it. I don't think either of us floundered.

[Scrapheap]

I have no problem with disagreeing with you or Odeon or anyone on this site. I (as seen with Odeon) have no problems with calling out anyone if I believe in whatever strongly. I am not intimidated by anyone here and IQ or not withstanding, Pyraxis do you think I am hopelessly outgunned going up against Odeon or Callaway because of my lower IQ?
Do you think I was on the last callout I did?

No actually I think you did a damn good job of presenting your case, and it ended pretty well all things considered.

By your rationale though it would not be a contest of equals. Odeon is smarter than me and has a higher IQ to prove it. I don't think either of us floundered.

You're not even touching the issue of those who are gifted in rhetoric. All of us who've lived past our mid-twenties, have heard very eloquent arguments in defense of complete bullshit. You can even find several examples of it on this site. Hell, even both of us are guilty of it.  :lol:

[Al Swearegen]

Me eloquent? Why thank you Scrap.

[richard]

I dont expect anyone to tie there brain behind their back baecause they are smarter than me.

Those beer cans sitting on my kitchen were old. I have a nack for not cleaning my kitchen in days, so really thats shotty evidence. you were in my ignore control panel, you had the ability to put me on ignore. you also have the ability to delete the entries in the moderator log. to me, Its more plausable that you did it, thinking I was never going to figure it out to prank me because I was either A) ignoring everyone else B) because I said "i liked looking at what people were working with, insinuating, that i like to see naked people" so you put me on ignore because you dont like looking at such. I must have done it to prove a point? The point if any I was trying to make, was with switching the avatars between male/female parts, Not ignoring people. I would have known if i put myself on ignore because you have to manually type in your screename into that panel

I would have never asked to seen the moderator logs If they would have said, "oh yeah, btw they can delete entries off of there" thats a complete waste of time. when obviously its not going to tell a 100% accurate story. that would be like me handing you some green paper, writing a dollar sign on it, and saying its money.

And parts knows, I was not taking a cheep shot at him. I was trying to say you are more cunning than him. I'm fully aware that he who pays the bills makes the rules, but its like wow. So i guess you can ignore everything i have to say

[RageBeoulve]

Herp derp