The issue of human stupidity, and dealing with it

[Lurk Hurk Gurk]

Human stupidity; it is the foundation of all major societies and cultures. While humans have the greatest capability for intelligence of all animals, our thinking is also the most irrational and error-prone, ie. stupid. Only a few geniuses rise significantly above the norm, and are the ones doing the thinking that once in a while leads to a significant burst of progress, though it is almost always fought against by the braindead mob at first. Humans, with a few exceptions, such as (to varying degrees) some of the people like us, and a few others whose intelligence enables them to sort out their stupidity (in computer terms, debug themselves), are herd animals. Mindless, useless, fucking morons who live only to gain the useless respect of their equally stupid peers, oppress anyone who doesn't fit tightly enough into the patterns that their society (as well as, on a smaller scale, social groups) follow for the moment, and do their best to force those better than themselves to operate at their level of stupidity.

Humanity has worked this way for all of its history, and will continue doing so until it is either wiped out, forcibly changed (perhaps a bunch of the best will one day manage to take control of the world and get it into shape; as technology progresses, the means for doing so will gradually appear. it is not likely to happen, though), or (should it survive long enough, something thankfully not all that likely) evolves into something else, whether it be less or more stupid.

What would be needed would be for a bunch of mad scientists, the kind that would completely disregards all existing norms and obsessively work towards their goals, to take over the world. Through genetic engineering, human nature could be improved. A strong enough world government could attain what would be needed to take absolute control over human reproduction; from there, every new generation could be given a set of genetic improvements, and over a few hundred years, humanity could evolve atleast partially out of its current, miserable state.

During the process though, a temporary solution would have to be used to reduce the influence of human stupidity, by enforcing rationality. Those who are incapable of making rational decisions would be forced to undergo therapy to correct their faults, if possible, or made incapable (depending on their usefulness, they could either be made into mindless slaves or executed. the latter is also a fine solution for the overpopulation problem) of decision-making.

Alternatively, as the chance of humanity being able to rid itself of its stupidity any other way is very slim, the most efficient solution would be the eradication of humanity.

[QuirkyCarla]

I'm too stupid to read that whole thing. 

[Lucifer]

pmsl QC!   

[McGiver]

thank god for stupid people, otherwise...

well i forgot what i was going to say.  does that make me stupid?

[Merry Widow]

Mindless, useless, fucking morons who live only to gain the useless respect of their equally stupid peers, oppress anyone who doesn't fit tightly enough into the patterns that their society (as well as, on a smaller scale, social groups) follow for the moment, and do their best to force those better than themselves to operate at their level of stupidity.

......such were my thoughts whilst browsing "Unread Posts Since Last Visit" on Intensity. 

i like it, Fluffalizer. nicely put.

[purposefulinsanity]

I know, why on earth would people just come to a message board to chill out when they could be exploring the meaning of life?? 

[Lurk Hurk Gurk]

thank god for stupid people, otherwise...

well i forgot what i was going to say.  does that make me stupid?

No worries; it merely makes you absent-minded.

Perhaps I should explain a bit more how I see intelligence and stupidity:

Intelligence is the capacity and capability. Stupidity is the faults (in computer terms, bugs) and what results from them. Intelligence is not mutally exclusive to stupidity; in fact, the greater the intelligence, the greater the potential for stupidity. A rock cannot be stupid; for there to be stupidity, there must be something in the system that can go wrong. The human brain and intellect, of those of all animals, have the greatest intelligence, but at the same time, the greatest potential for stupidity. There is much that can go wrong, and often does, as evidenced by the highly irrational behavior of people in general, leading to the way cultures and societies work and have worked for the extent of human history.


Evolution only makes things good enough for the achievement of survival, and if possible, domination. Evolutionary progress, including that of humanity, can be described as operating under the principle of: "It seemed like a good idea at the time." Humanity is thus thriving while being extremely imperfected, and will hardly evolve significantly until there is a need for it to, which won't happen until the point where it is already absolutely screwed. And even if humanity does survive the relatively near future and evolves further, it will still be imperfected to the same degree, though the area of imperfection might change somewhat.

I know, why on earth would people just come to a message board to chill out when they could be exploring the meaning of life?? 

What meaning?

Though indeed there is the (seemingly rather faint) possibility of one, something well-worth examining. Which provides a good reason to be rational, as it increases your (seemingly rather faint) chances of finding that meaning, if any.

In the end, as long as you can do so without interfering whatever goals you have, there is no reason not to follow your desires. Therefore, their mere existance provides a sufficiently good argument for the fulfilling of them. Thus, (assuming it does not interfere with some important goal of yours, provided there are any) if you desire to chill out on this board, no worries.

[Nomaken]

I strongly believe that death is the answer to everyones problems.  But I also know people arent really very interested in solving their problems or listening to sense.  Me included.

[Leto729]

Humans are Emotional Beings, rationality can not be forced on Humans either too. I think forcing to live in that type of World would be bad for Humanity too. It would not solve the issues that Humanity has with itself either.

[McGiver]

Humans are Emotional Beings, rationality can not be forced on Humans either too. I think forcing to live in that type of World would be bad for Humanity too. It would not solve the issues that Humanity has with itself either.

i am a vulcan.  there is no logioc to emotions.

nanu nanu!
shazbot.

[Lurk Hurk Gurk]

Humans are Emotional Beings, rationality can not be forced on Humans either too. I think forcing to live in that type of World would be bad for Humanity too. It would not solve the issues that Humanity has with itself either.

Rationality and emotions are not mutually exclusive. Letting emotions influence your decision-making is though, unless of cource, you have a good reason to. (I can't think of any rational reason to limit your ability to reason rationally though, unless temporary as a means of circumventing a persistant bug in the workings of your mind that you are currently unable to correct)

In order to be rational, you must keep the fundamental, underlying layer of your thinking strictly so. On top of that foundation, you can then build whatever the fuck you want, as long as, of cource, you have a rational reason to. This allows you to be fully rational at "heart", but still, for example, be able to deliberately and knowingly twist your thoughts into something that would literally blow the mind of any given psychologist* and laugh maniacally at what results, while retaining the ability to utilize your self-control to clamp down on your thoughts and feelings near-instantly whenever needed. Also, emotions are useful tools whenever you have trouble staying motivated; nothing like a bit of anger to keep you going.

*Has yet to be tested. Unfortunately, it would be very hard to achieve unless you were able to communicate your thinking in full, without the limits imposed by clumsy languages. Sometime in the future, providing it becomes possible, I hope to be able to give it a try. I think I'd have a fair chance to succeed.


As for forcing rationality upon people, with the right amount of the appropriate "therapy", it shouldn't be too hard. For those who are naturally able to develop the neccessary self-control and purge their minds of irrational thought patterns, a bit of assistance would be all neccessary. (those include me; while I seen to be getting very far on my own, I highly doubt I'll be able to get all the way) Those, however, would be a small minority. A significantly larger portion of people, but probably (far?) less than half, could make it with the help of a bit more forceful methods, getting it through with their minds and personalities relatively intact. The rest would be hopeless cases, and would have to either be reduced into mindless slaves unable to make any decisions of their own exceeding their highly limited ability to reason (they would thus be made rational by forcibly removing their ability to make irrational decisions), or executed, the only solution guaranteed to result in perfect rationality. (as the human mind is inherently imperfect. though quite a few people could be made to come close enough that it wouldn't matter)

Those who would manage to get through it all would be able to live with far more personal freedom than before, not having to conform to all those mindnumbingly stupid social norms, (the legal system could be greatly simplified as well) and would suddenly be able both to think for themselves and to express their thinking in full without being persecuted by mindless morons. Of cource, those unable to get through it all would end up in a quite unhealthy state indeed; either dead or mindlessly living on, doing whatever work they were assigned. It would serve as an adequate temporary solution to humanity's problems until a few generations of artificial genetic improvement had passed, resulting in a population consisting solely of rational, intelligent people, led by a world government able to sort out the issues of humanity in a perfectly rational manner.

[Lucifer]

why all the discussion?  just push the stupid people into a big hole, and wait for them to become human compost, and make flowers and organic veggies grow.  simple, and no existential angst.

[Nomaken]

I believe that emotions are the building blocks of ideas and concepts.  I think sensations, in the corresponding integration areas in the brain, in the form of patterns of signals make up what is most visible and easily understandable part of ideas and concepts.  But the most important parts of an idea or a concept are the emotions people associate with those patterns of signals.  Without the emotions, an image could symbolize anything, a word could mean anything, and nothing would have meaning compared to anything else.

I mean, think about it logically here.  Perhaps the brain can understand that a certain set of signals means red, or a certain set of signals mean hunger or pain, or another set of signals represents a sound of a certain pitch.  But without emotions, how would you know you don't want to be hungry.  How would you be able to see like hunger, you don't want pain.  Or that red in certain situations meant danger or stop.  Or that like being touched in a certain way, you would like to be a certain tempreture.

Without the emotions behind the patterns, it would be impossible to understand metaphore, which is the basis of ideas.

[Leto729]

Fluffalizer

You are wrong for people all people need control of themselves in all ways shape and forms and processes You take that away they will never truly learn to Live Life. Dictating every little thing  and all You create is a Dictatorship in the end. We as people here and there in much part of this World have lived in such Dictatorships. Yes Humans have ruled Humans to there injury too.

Having Mad Scientists to come up with this is wrong too. What would they create in the end? More problems in the end. Forcing therapy on people would create a rebellion by forcing and imposing a set type of Ideas on people people would rebelled. For You would need to find the right therapy, on a individual bases per-person and find that therapists for that person too. I go to therapy Myself I do because I what to not because I have too. Controlling thought is what You truly want even God does not control Us in that way for We have free will to choose. Having these imperfect Mad Scientists do this would not make Mankind any more perfect either.

Genetic engineering has been going on since the beginning of time (domesticated animals). But would that make humans better or worse. I think worse for Humanity itself would suffer. Because You would have to keep tampering with Humanity because certain Ideas would go out of fashion. Having Your Imperfect Mad Scientists doing work would not solve all the issues either.

Forcing rationality on people morally wrong in the way You want to do it in the end. For everybody in the end rationalizes differently.

I once wanted to kill some people 5 or so yes My emotions where high even though I rationalize maybe even doing it I also rationalize not doing it which one do You think I did. That was free will in the end even weighing what I was thinking about doing in the end.

In the end what is being stupid even a rational person can do a stupid thing in the end no matter how rational the person is in the end. Emotions rational and irrational emotions is what makes Humans what they are in the richness of Life in the end. Take that away and You are destorying Humanity in the end with You Mad Scientists that are just as Imperfect as I am in the end. Would that be fair to Humanity in the end no not at all.

[Lurk Hurk Gurk]

Only one (though arguably a major one) freedom would be removed; that of making irrational decisions. In return, many others would be granted; in a rational society, far less restrictions would be needed. The idea would not be to make people less in control of themselves, but more; fully able to control their own thoughts and feelings. What I have in mind is not a dictatorship, nor a true democracy: a society where all who are intelligent have a say (how much depending on their intelligence), and those who aren't can't screw things up.

Those capable of correcting their flaws themselves could get such freedom in their therapy; others would need to have it forced upon them, and any rebellion, which would likely asrise, would need to be stopped through the use of whatever force neccessary. The control of thought imposed on people would only go as far as to debug the workings of their minds, fixing the faults that render them irrational and prevent them from making full use of their capabilities. They would then be free, and more able than ever, to think for themselves. What I wonder is why you are so strongly against this sort of "control", but not against the ongoing cultural and societal indoctrination and brainwashing forced upon every person able to think and communicate in the world; it is in the end not only far more oppressive, but forces the stupidities of their culture, society, and in many cases religion, onto the next generation in addition to their own; this indoctrination and brainwashing would cease, leaving people free to develop their individuality in any way they want, as long as it does not present any direct harm to others.

Whether genetic engineering would make humanity better or worse depends on for what purpose and in what way it is done. Making humanity smarter, stronger, healthier, able to live longer, and by nature rational, would be a very worthy achievement to make.

A rational person does something stupid because of a lack of either the data or the processing capability needed to come up with a better solution. An irrational person does stupid things because of a faulty mind that bases its decisions on the garbage resulting from broken thought processes. The minds of irrational people are like buggy software, and should be seen and treated in a similar way.

As for emotions, as explained in my previous post, there is no need to take them away, as long as they can be brought under control whenever they threaten to cause irrational behavior. They can keep enrichening the lives of those capable of controlling them. Perhaps even more than before, even, as self-control goes both ways: sufficiently developed, it allows you not only to suppress, but also to arouse emotions. And through the analyzing of and tinkering with your basic thought patterns, you can modify your emotional response. I have done so in multiple ways; it allows you to, permanently, both bring emotions under control in certain situations by destroying old thought patterns and the associations that trigger them, and to do the opposite. With quite a bit of effort, you could maximize the emotional richness of your life in whatever fashion you would prefer while remaining rational.