What are you going to do today?

[Jack]

So what have you contributed to the society lately?

Don't get me wrong: I'm far from supporting Lestat's drug-fuelled fantasies. But really , Odeon, that's an horribly cheap and completely irrelevant comback.  And that's not the frist time I've seen you throw that one in

What the heck you think you're doing, on an Aspie Board, FFS, coming across as worthier-than-thou, just  because you're in renumerative  employment, and quite a number of us are not? You do know that's  a very common aspie problem , don't you? You do know that , very often, people's  self-esteem plummets to a  suicidal low on that account? Especially here in Britain, where the unemployed and disabled are the new Jews, according to various unscrupulous politicians and media?

Yeah, I do know this isn't a Kumbuyaa-singing support group; it's the "grow -a-thick skin" group, but that really is the pits. What the heck is possessing you?

There's other means than financial to contribute to society.

[Walkie]

So what have you contributed to the society lately?

Don't get me wrong: I'm far from supporting Lestat's drug-fuelled fantasies. But really , Odeon, that's an horribly cheap and completely irrelevant comback.  And that's not the frist time I've seen you throw that one in

What the heck you think you're doing, on an Aspie Board, FFS, coming across as worthier-than-thou, just  because you're in renumerative  employment, and quite a number of us are not? You do know that's  a very common aspie problem , don't you? You do know that , very often, people's  self-esteem plummets to a  suicidal low on that account? Especially here in Britain, where the unemployed and disabled are the new Jews, according to various unscrupulous politicians and media?

Yeah, I do know this isn't a Kumbuyaa-singing support group; it's the "grow -a-thick skin" group, but that really is the pits. What the heck is possessing you?

There's other means than financial to contribute to society.

I know that, but it's rarely recognised nowadays, at least not in Britain  eg a full time mother looking after her own children is nowadays regarded as a lazy, self-indulgent  "drain on society" , wheras  a nanny , professional foster parent and the like are regarded as making an honourable contribution to society. It all hangs on whether you participate in "economic activity", such that the taxman gets a cut

That's one of the things that makes me sick about modern Britain. Valuing everything in terms of currency (as we now do) has had the effect of devaluing and marginalising a lot of very important activity, and of raising up things that are trivial or else downright antisocial. eg working in a call centre. 

I imagine that Odeon is very well aware of the current ethos.

[Jack]

Am sure you both know that. Have discussed here before about people being directly attacked for drawing social disability, but Odeon didn't directly do that. Personally never understood the attitudes of other countries concerning unemployment though, that's probably because unemployment is an earned benefit in the US so there's no room for negative implications about using those benefits.

[renaeden]

I'm studying IT so afterwards I can contribute to society. Not by way of help desk tech support though. Hopefully I can get a job at Curtin University testing software. It's supposed to be a mostly autistic work environment which appeals to me.

Today? Housework and studying. And enjoying the rain.

[Gopher Gary]

I might consider contributing to society when I get tired of contributing to myself. 

[Walkie]

Am sure you both know that. Have discussed here before about people being directly attacked for drawing social disability, but Odeon didn't directly do that. Personally never understood the attitudes of other countries concerning unemployment though, that's probably because unemployment is an earned benefit in the US so there's no room for negative implications about using those benefits.

So what happens when somebody is too disabled, from the word go,  to ever earn that benefit?

Attitudes in Britain have changed considerably during my lifetime. We used to regard the safety net provided by welfare as a right. Now it's all regarded as "charity" even though it's paid for (theoretically at least) by our National Insurance contributions.  Indeed , some benefits are directly conditional on one having personally paid in sufficicient "stamps"; but (again in theory) everybody should be getting the bare minimum needed, even if they've never worked. That latter principle is p[retty much out-of-the-window now though. People have accepted that it's fair and reasonable to take away  that bare minimum, in punishment for various misdemeanours such as getting to the dole office 5 minutes late; and there's a crippling degree of pressure to "prove" that you're "deserving",  and the constant threat of sanctions if you fail to jump through all the hoops.

Also, people constantly forget that most of the benefits are  paid out to people who are working, but just  not earning enough to get by on their wages. Housing Benefit is the biggie here, but it;s not the only such benefit.  Neverthetheless "benefits claimqants" are routinely equated with "work-shy scroungers", just as if they were all unemployed. Of course , that helps to justify the recurring  benefit cuts, but it just isn't true, not by any stretch; and it's not just the  unemployed who suffer from those cuts.  Not that it would be OK, if it were just the unemployed, but that goes to illustrate the depth of the dishonesty involved.

but anyway you said about "people being directly attacked for drawing social disability". I don't think it's just a about drawing benefits; there's this "work ethic " thing coming into it. I don't know about Odeon (he;'s not British, after all) but a lot of people here are increasingly miserab;e in their jobs (due to being increasingly hard-worked, increasingly underpaid,  increasingly treated like dirt, and increasingly insecure) therefore increasingly resentful of those who get by withourt working. It's irrational of cpurse. :they don't want to actually trade places with the uinemployed; and the fact is , usually, that a lot their co-workers have been laid off in a drive towards increasing "efficiency" , and both groups (the unemployed and the overworked) are victims of that same process, not engineers of it.  But , heck, when were human beings ever rational?

Personally, i completely lost faith in the work ethic long ago, after repeatedly being told by friends, family , acquaintances and careers advisors that I had to grovel, beg and tell a load of porkies to stand any realistic chance of landing a job.  Apart from my aspie disinclination to tell porkies, i found i couldn't square that process with a sense of "Social obligation"  I figured that i had more of a social obligation to stand up for my fricking principles, and that nobody , anywhere on earth ever had to beg and grovel foer permission to do their social duty before. Not that I ever heard of. That's a contradiction in terms. Renumerative work is either a duty or a privilege. you can't rationally paint it as both. So ijust carried on being honest at interviews, and being turned down.

At the same time, politicians were starting to say that unemployment is the price we pay for a booming economy. So I figured that I played a "useful" role in the Economy  either way. Not that I wanted a useful role in the Economy, because it beginning to sound like a load of cynical shite. I just wanted to be useful to other people (don't we all?)  That's not necessarily the same thing at all.  Nor is it easy, necessarily, to find a socially useful role (especially if you're a cack-handed Aspie)    but that's been my ideal, and, along the way,  i've been intensely critical in assessing what's genuinely useful and what isn't, and arriving at any number of unconventional perspectives.   

Right now , i think it's pretty damned intrusive tio challenge anybody to tell you in what way they've made an useful contribution?   If someone said that to me, i'd most likely say "Bugger all. I'm a lazy bastard" , just to get them out of my hair.  I don't like being pressured to explain or justify myself. What Aspie ever does? And I'd probably make an horribly bad job of it, if I tried.  Therefore, I'm totally happy if people make dismissive character judgments, just so long as they follow that up by leaving me alone.

Of course Lestat is a dead easy target, as easy as they come. It's pretty clear from  his posts that he's in no fit state to do anything much at all. So , never mind what Odeon meant exactly by that that . Twist it any way you like, it was a  thoroughgoing  cheap shot, IMO. And it really does smack of the more able spazz looking down on the less able spazz, and trying to induce guilt, which we all have way  too much of already.

Wel, OK, , TBH, I don't actually think that Odeon's actually nasty like that. Just thoughtless, probably. But best if he answers for himself, huh?  (if he can be troubled with answering , that is)  I don't wanna be making his excuses for him too  . I just wanted to stick my oar in there because people do read these post, ya know? And that sense worthier-than-thou I kept catching (whether real, or not)    was really beginning to bug me.  And this particulart time, it came a tad too soon after reading something (written by an Aspie) along the lines of  "What right do I have to live, when I don't have a job?". That reminded me how vulnerable some of us are to that line of questioning.   

[Jack]

So what happens when somebody is too disabled, from the word go,  to ever earn that benefit?

Unemployment and disability benefits are two different things.

And this particulart time, it came a tad too soon after reading something (written by an Aspie) along the lines of  "What right do I have to live, when I don't have a job?".

It seemed to me to come soon after reading something along the lines of killing people deemed to be social parasites. Maybe Odeon meant it exactly the way you took it, but it's still not what he said. If Lestat wants to promote exterminating social parasites then what's wrong with asking what makes him more worthy; can only a jobless person ask him, or is he so disabled no one should challenge him at all? Personally don't think I contribute much to society outside of paying taxes and not being a criminal. Did loads of volunteer work before having a career, but slowly took on too much over time and it became overwhelming. That side of me has trouble saying no. Quit cold turkey and never looked back. My own sense of social duty doesn't generally reach farther than my own family.

[Lestat]

Its one thing being british to begin with then becoming too disabled to work and having no CHOICE but to rely on the state for their bread and breakfast, and a little if left over to do things they wish to do, such as my slowly accumulating the things I save for, for my lab.

Than someone coming over with the deliberate intent to steal, engage in organized deliberate aggressive begging, whilst faking sickness, from their country, to pickpocket, rob and sponge in that sense, and lie to sponge off the state. That is NOTHING like actually being british, being entitled to claim, and thence claiming when one is too disabled to, or whilst one cannot find work (disability/sick benefit and unemployment respectively) And anyone can ask  me, other than the organized romanian vermin. Those fuckers DO come over in gangs, employing their large child families to beg aggressively, to outright thieve, to pickpocket, to rape, rob, burgle and sponge off the states by means of making up completely false stories to put down on the application forms. THAT is sponging. Taking benefits, of the country you are native or naturalized in, because you NEED them, is not sponging.  Not in my book anyway. Anyone can ask.

[Walkie]

So what happens when somebody is too disabled, from the word go,  to ever earn that benefit?

Unemployment and disability benefits are two different things.

Ah yes. same here, though that distinction is pretty damned blurred, given that one of our disabilty benefits is conditional upon the recipient   being provably  "unfit for work", and recipients are being painted up as parasites, same as the healthy unemployed.They have a bunch of tests they put people through (such as lifting an empty cardboard box, i kid you not) that are sup[oseed to catch out the "fraudulent" claimants. They don't, of course, explain what kind of work those activities make you fit for. There is zero concern about genuine claimants falling through the net.

One of the most most chillng thing about this, IMO, is that people who become progressively disabled (an all-too common scenario) will inevitably go through a phase when they qualify  for neither Jobseekers Allowance (which is conditional upon one being declaredly "fit for work" . And they make claimants jump through so many hoops that you'll likely get caught out, and have that benefit withdrawn,  if you lie about that) nor these increasingly  stringent , and increasingly daft disability benefits. Presumably , most such people end up on the street, unless they kill themselves first. Indeed, I've personally  been through that phase, and it really is impossible to navigate, unless your friends and family find out and are willing and able to help.

In my case , i was doing my damnedest not to claim that I was actually  ill, not to anybody (not even friends and family)  because i didn't understand what the heck was going on, and not even the neurologist had believed in the symptoms I described, I spent a year or two being totally reclusive, whilst my rent went ever-further into arrears, my phone got cut off,  and my life fell apart around me, In the end , my mother bailed me out, and my sister took a video which convinced the NHS I had genuine difficulties. The NHS , in turn, helped convinve the Benefits people, but given the very long waiting lists for both, it certainly wasn't resolved in 5 minutes. And i finally spilled the beans and got my family on board (under pressure from them, because my pretence of being OK had just about worn to rags))   the day before I was due to be evicted.

Sadly, I don't think my experience is ar all uncommon, except , perhaps inasmuch as I survived it. I've been reading too many stories, suvch as the blind man who was found dead, from hanging himself,  in his hallway when the bailiffs came to evict him. (after he was found "fit for work")  That's why Lestat annoyed me so much when he said that it's easy to live on benefits benefits in Britain. If even  some benefits claimants think so...grrrr. (though my annoyance is directed more at the politicians and media than at Lestat himself, Can't really blame people for being over-influenced by what they hear on TV, and read in the papers)

t seemed to me to come soon after reading something along the lines of killing people deemed to be social parasites. Maybe Odeon meant it exactly the way you took it, but it's still not what he said. If Lestat wants to promote exterminating social parasites then what's wrong with asking what makes him more worthy; can only a jobless person ask him, or is he so disabled no one should challenge him at all?

OK, you have a point. Reading his post back, Lestat had actually described the Muslims as "parasitical", therefore aguably, deserves the same retort. Howevever, the "parasitical" aspect was completely overshadowed by his graphic descriptions of Muslim violence, and he was citing said "parasitism "as a deliberate act of agresssion against  non-Muslim countries. Irrespective of whether you agree with him, you can't call that response"like for like", not if you take that term in context.

Lestat might be prejudiced,or [insert your favourite Lestat slur here here] , but he said what he said, it was cogent enough, for what it's worth; and he presumably meant it quite seriously . Of course, anyone at all has a right to challenge him about it, but  Odeon was coming across as saying that Lestat's lowly socio-economic status invalidated his opinion, and he had nothing further to say  than that.  He didn't actually address Lestat's arguments at all.  Not that I can  blame people for not troubling to address Lestat's arguments (neither did I, come to that)  but let's not pretend that we've addressed those arguments. 

Nonetheless, you've convinced me that an extremely fast and  casualreading of Lestat's post, just picking out a few key words, and unconsciously inserting the rest could make Odeon's reponse seem totally fair . And it occurs to me that's probably all Lestat ever gets from most of us, most of the time. So that could easily explain Odeon's response in this instance. It's  a pity that my irritation at a rash of similar comments from Odeon boiled over at this particular moment, because I don't find that altogether satisfactory.

I Personally don't think I contribute much to society outside of paying taxes and not being a criminal. Did loads of volunteer work before having a career, but slowly took on too much over time and it became overwhelming. That side of me has trouble saying no.

Same. Well, I've never had a career as such, and have only worked erratically, but I totalled up how much time I was putting into voluntary work and honourary positions at one point in time    , and -to my own surprise, it came to  roundabout 80 hours per week! That was shortly after  my son was born, and it was abundantly clear that i couldn't carry on like that. I was actually losing more sleep, keeping up with my  freebie work, than I was on account of having a baby to care for! 

Quit cold turkey and never looked back. My own sense of social duty doesn't generally reach farther than my own family.

Can't blame you at all.  But you know, most people would credibly claim that they are totally fulfilling their social obligations just by working? I don't altogether buy that logic. Most people are working for the sake of the salary, after all,  not out of the goodness of their hearts.  But I do entirely accept that working and raising a family don't leave any time, realistically speaking,  for taking on further obligations, and that shouldn't be expected of anyone.  Actually I've had a whole succession of neighbours who scream abuse at each other and throw things at each other in the middle of the night. Whenever one couple moves out, some near-identical couple move in.  I suspect that's largely because the strain of working full time (on low wages)  and raising a family is getting to them . Couples like that were relatively rare in my youth, but they seem to have become the norm, in tandem with both parents working their socks off becoming the norm. Of course, there's also the problem that people can't afford to split up and pay rent twice over, so such couples stay together for much longer than is wise, psychologically speaking. 

In short, if you're managing to work full-time, raise a family, and not throw tantrums at your other half, then you're doing unusually well, it would seem.

I think parents have a real social obligation to look after themselves psychlogically, so they don't screw up their kids. But that's much easier said than done , of course. And in our economy -driven society, that one never even gets mentioned, let alone approved.

In other words, you look to me to be as responsible as they come;  way  beyond the call of "social obligation" as presently formulated.

[Walkie]

Whoa! Lestat posted a response of his own, and five other  posts  (incuding one very long one)whilst I  was writing the above.

Walkie is definitely sloooow, but i'm leaving that to stand, because Lestat said nothing to contradict my observations. Quite the reverse, indeed. 

[Lestat]

By easy to claim benefits, I meant for the deliberate come-over-to-sponge-ers rather than the deserving, it seems like for the undeserving, the beer-swilling pikey slobs that cannae be fucked to work, those that WILL NOT rather than CANNOT work, those were who my invective was directed at, not you walkie. *I* don't find it easy to live with what I have coming in as benefit. Not at all.

And as for the muslims, look at abu (think its abu, might be abdul) hamza, the hook-handed al-qaeda scumbag that britain fanny-arsed around like a bunch of pussies, citing EU 'law' (fucking bollocks to the EU as an organization, cunting thieves and parasites) but cap'n hook the towelheaded binladenite scumsucking parasite and hate preacher HAS actually outright encouraged more of his brethren and sistren to come over, and if they are unwilling to engage in direct terrorist violence, to breed us out, us being british people, or naturalized people with a RIGHT to be here and who respect british culture.  And to not work but latch on like ticks to the benefit sheep, and suck £-blood from the country to make us as a nation, poorer and less capable of mounting an effective response against the violent fanatical cunts, and generally suck us dry. I CBF searching for his quotes and care little to hear his speeches or be connected with searching for them, for I do not wish the fact I myself am a chemist to wrongfully be connected with his al-qaeda cuntishness and then as a consequence suffer being on watch lists, assuming (and I probably am [*waves at MI5...yeah, just keep yourself to yourself, away from me, and I'll keep myself to myself away from you. Then we are both happy. Otherwise, whatever, leave me to do the sort of science I wish to pursue, you can stop bothering now, nice day, etc. etc etc. *waves*]) or worse raided, and even if no charges are brought, suffer the ransacking of my laboratory, tossing through and thoughtless destruction of glassware, again when I have not even been CHARGED let alone convicted, with a damn thing, have all my carefully ordered printouts of scientific journals left in disorder etc.

So, go search, those who have nothing to be connected wrongly with, and to lose for it, and you will SEE that he has publicly hate-preached for his fellow fanatical islamoturds to leach from the benefit tit.

Whilst those who, like walkie and I, NEED what we have, what little it probably is for you too walkie, I know it is for me. We have to jump through hoops, whilst the slobs get a fuckton of money, and the parasites, the TRUE, deliberate, calculating verminous filth that do come specifically with the intent to parasitize, they get off easy due to political correctness 'oohh noo...we can't possibly offend someone BROWN! shock! horror! give them cash so they don't bring a claim against us' type, play the minority card.

If that makes me racist, then sieg fucking heil.

I've been accused of being racist before, here, or elsewhere. But no. What I AM, is outspoken, And I am NOT politically correct. I say what others might be afraid to say and if there is a fallout and backblast, I stand and I weather it. So, odeon, never mind what my income is, or where it comes from, I am not going to go into those in TOO much depths. But its irrelevant. Yes, its my fault, kinda that I was playing as a kid in an abandoned factory. But, do you truly believe it justified to blame a kid for doing what most all kids DO, mucking about, playing, you blame a child, for being a child, and then for having a true accident that left him with a crippling injury? you blame that child, AS a child, and blame the man who that kid became, AS a man FOR doing what he is, and has had happened to him as a consequence, for needing financial support? you know, I have TRIED to get  work, for a long long time, I have now, I confess, given up looking, although there is a job locally that is close by and doesn't need transport (my range is limited, because I cannot drive a car, seizures make it dangerous for me to even try, I did at one point when the seizures were more controlled, do some lessons but family finance made it impossible for me to continue, so I retain my provisional drivers licence merely to use as a form of formal ID when I need such.

Or do you blame me, for as I was recovering from the injury abovementioned, a bunch of pikey thugs that simply liked to dish out violence for kicks to those they thought less than them, adults and much much older teens many of them, and about 15-20 to one. Blame me for getting my head, knee, face stamped on and being left for dead? or according to you, should I have, whilst still recovering from the penetrating and even then agonizing, crippling knee injury and weakness, from fighting off this large pack of much older teenage and full grown adult thugs? well?

Account for yourself or fucking suck my Kanner's cock and call it fucking ice cream, then beg for more, mother fucker.

Walkie mate you got my sympathies. Know what those bastard DHSS shitheads did to me personally? they forced me to one of their medicals. And when I got there, dropped off by car, so I was there on time almost to the minute, I went in, and their 'doctor' as the receptionists themselves told me, simply couldn't be fucking bothered to turn up to work so there was no point my remaining that day, I was free to go. Then I got a letter saying 'nonattendance', and was for many many many months forced to scrounge on scraps of food my family did not eat, for they could not afford to feed three and my mother was then alive. She now is not and I have more to eat. But, other than that, I was reduced to hunting for food in the wilds, occasionally blasting the odd small animal with various weaponry already owned/built and eating same. And to picking wild mushrooms to eat. Other than that, I had, from my DLA which is a lifetime grant, because I am autistic and need the mobility allowance, I only get lower rate, some bit less or bit more than £20 a week, paid monthly, other than that I had NOTHING. For months. I took a case against them with the help of the citizen's advice, and won. They gave me a large lump sum too, in what back pay I was owed, amounting to nearly half a grand. That enabled me to rebuild the lab the filth had destroyed, or partially so, damaged badly and stolen from.  And to buy a new computer, although they again have damaged that in another raid, and stolen it so I could not and cannot use it. You bet there will be a case against those fucking rat bastards once all is said and done.

So no, my ire and hate was not targeted at you, but at those who's intention IS to sponge, and do so calculatingly. The lazy, and the parasitic. And of course the lazy parasitic. Those in need? I'm not insulting them, and I am certainly not insulting you, damned if I DID do so, for your story is not far different from my own. I lost masses of weight due to sheer hunger, and was on a few meals a week. For nearly a year. If I called you a lazy ass parasitic piece of trash, and I did not, do not, and will not either, then I would be directing that same insult at my own self.

So apologies if I took offense walkie.

Now odeon, account for your words. Respond or lose any respect I had for you. Back yourself the fuck up, don't just skim and form an opinion based on a few cherry fucking picked words of mine own. Read it, and read this, put the two together and address my points.

["couldbecousin"]

  Today I'm going to try to adjust to the reality of President-Elect Donald Fucking Trump. 

Fuck reality. I'm self-medicating for the next 4 years.  

  Come up to Massachusetts.    is now legal!

[Icequeen]

  Today I'm going to try to adjust to the reality of President-Elect Donald Fucking Trump. 

Fuck reality. I'm self-medicating for the next 4 years.  

  Come up to Massachusetts.    is now legal!

I do feel the need for a vacation.

["couldbecousin"]

  Today I'm going to try to adjust to the reality of President-Elect Donald Fucking Trump. 

Fuck reality. I'm self-medicating for the next 4 years.  

  Come up to Massachusetts.    is now legal!

I do feel the need for a vacation.

  Our ... "foliage" ... is lovely this time of year. 

[Lestat]

MM all the leaves from the wildlife plants are falling this time of year, or fallen, save the evergreens.

Perhaps its time that a touch of green foliage were made sure to be ready to deck the lestat in the halls with bows of...well not ivy anyway. Definitely not ivy.

Care to pass the foliage CBC;)