Thread that GA cannot lock. Debate continued in here. GA's Diaper time...

[Christopher McCandless]

So to carry on...

What has religion got to do with being gay? 

Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.

Eh?  You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...

Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.

I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! 

Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...

I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! 

Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.

Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.

So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? 

I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.

In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.

This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.

No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.

And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?

I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.

But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?

The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.

Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?

Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.

I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. 

I think you need to stop trying to put words into my mouth and making things as black and white as you seem to need it to be. Sexuality is a choice, as I have said. The most logical choice tends to be the one that produces children.

Now you need to explain why any of these groups have a stronger argument for what they want than any strongly religious group. Explain why they deserve it more. Rather than trying to roll my argument into something which I have never made.

I "put words into your mouth," that is, speculate about what you think, because you refuse to answer whether you believe anyone is truly gay. Since you keep talking about homosexulaity as a lifestyle choice made by rebels and misfits, rather than acknowledging that it might in fact be the natural orientation for some, I can only conclude that you do not believe anyone is truly gay. If I have misunderstood you, I would love to hear what you really think.

And why do I now "need to" compare and contrast the rights of gay people and the rights of religious people?

I have answered your question - just not spelled everything out....

Quite simple, the gay rights movement is demanding that gay people be treated better than religious people. So unless you agree with me in that they need to shut up, then you are going to have to justify their premise.

["couldbecousin"]

So to carry on...

What has religion got to do with being gay? 

Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.

Eh?  You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...

Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.

I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! 

Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...

I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! 

Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.

Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.

So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? 

I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.

In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.

This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.

No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.

And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?

I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.

But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?

The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.

Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?

Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.

I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. 

I think you need to stop trying to put words into my mouth and making things as black and white as you seem to need it to be. Sexuality is a choice, as I have said. The most logical choice tends to be the one that produces children.

Now you need to explain why any of these groups have a stronger argument for what they want than any strongly religious group. Explain why they deserve it more. Rather than trying to roll my argument into something which I have never made.

I "put words into your mouth," that is, speculate about what you think, because you refuse to answer whether you believe anyone is truly gay. Since you keep talking about homosexulaity as a lifestyle choice made by rebels and misfits, rather than acknowledging that it might in fact be the natural orientation for some, I can only conclude that you do not believe anyone is truly gay. If I have misunderstood you, I would love to hear what you really think.

And why do I now "need to" compare and contrast the rights of gay people and the rights of religious people?

I have answered your question - just not spelled everything out....

Quite simple, the gay rights movement is demanding that gay people be treated better than religious people. So unless you agree with me in that they need to shut up, then you are going to have to justify their premise.

Please explain how the gay rights movement is demanding that gay people be treated better than religious people.

[Christopher McCandless]

So to carry on...

What has religion got to do with being gay? 

Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.

Eh?  You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...

Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.

I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! 

Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...

I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! 

Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.

Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.

So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? 

I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.

In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.

This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.

No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.

And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?

I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.

But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?

The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.

Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?

Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.

I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. 

I think you need to stop trying to put words into my mouth and making things as black and white as you seem to need it to be. Sexuality is a choice, as I have said. The most logical choice tends to be the one that produces children.

Now you need to explain why any of these groups have a stronger argument for what they want than any strongly religious group. Explain why they deserve it more. Rather than trying to roll my argument into something which I have never made.

I "put words into your mouth," that is, speculate about what you think, because you refuse to answer whether you believe anyone is truly gay. Since you keep talking about homosexulaity as a lifestyle choice made by rebels and misfits, rather than acknowledging that it might in fact be the natural orientation for some, I can only conclude that you do not believe anyone is truly gay. If I have misunderstood you, I would love to hear what you really think.

And why do I now "need to" compare and contrast the rights of gay people and the rights of religious people?

I have answered your question - just not spelled everything out....

Quite simple, the gay rights movement is demanding that gay people be treated better than religious people. So unless you agree with me in that they need to shut up, then you are going to have to justify their premise.

Please explain how the gay rights movement is demanding that gay people be treated better than religious people.

Because they are interfering with people acting on their religious beliefs and the internal affairs of religious organisations. For example Catholic adoption agencies, forcing them to have gay priests and so on. The names debate on gay marriage is another example. Its all evident - pick up a national newspaper in the UK for a week or look online. Not difficult to find with google...

[McGiver]

locked threads: 

[Eclair]

Aha...you accused ME of pretending I have evidence.

Not the case, I merely suggested that you should look into issues re GID etc.

I think what comes to mind is I think you protesteth too much.

Do you have your own personal issues against gays (not that GA is) or whatever. You seem highly emotive on this issue.

You want GA to conform to the status quo, yet this is the stance you despise?

What's been most enlightening is actually YOUR emotive response to GA.

["couldbecousin"]

I can't pick up a UK newspaper because I'm in the US. I also agree that religious organizations should be free to impose their own rules within their own membership. I have always believed, if you disagree with your religion, leave it. Maybe the UK culture is different. Over here, gay marriage is still a big issue; it only became legal in my state in 2004, opposed by many religious groups who think their beliefs should be imposed outside their membership. That is what makes me angry.

[Eclair]

Hadron, whilst you are abusing GA, maybe we can address your own issues of abuse.....perhaps that's why you feel the need to start a witch hunt?

Have you ever looked into it's effects on YOUR persona?

[Christopher McCandless]

Aha...you accused ME of pretending I have evidence.

Not the case, I merely suggested that you should look into issues re GID etc.

I think what comes to mind is I think you protesteth too much.

Do you have your own personal issues against gays (not that GA is) or whatever. You seem highly emotive on this issue.

You want GA to conform to the status quo, yet this is the stance you despise?

What's been most enlightening is actually YOUR emotive response to GA.

I look at the battles which have a real point - the GID stuff is a dead end as far as I am concerned. We cannot be occupying ourselves with these pointless and damaging battles. There are simple fundementals that we are all after, education, jobs and respect. But key to all this is a right that needs to be implemented - that no-one can discriminate against us on social grounds for any job or opportunity that we might apply for, unless the social aspect is strictly neccessary. This is something that I actually put a lot of effort into fighting for. However when we have lots of people like GA choosing to be liabilities, this goal is so much less likely to happen. Just imagine him or someone like him all over the sunday tabloids. People like him hold us back from the basics that really matter for the sake of their own self-indulgence.

As for gay people nothing against them personally. But I expect them to get out of the way of more important causes. No one is stopping them having access to any basics. Their struggle is trivial compared to most of our own, all they have to do is tell a simple lie. We have to live one and most of us fail. Nor do we have a choice in the matter. They do.

[Christopher McCandless]

I can't pick up a UK newspaper because I'm in the US. I also agree that religious organizations should be free to impose their own rules within their own membership. I have always believed, if you disagree with your religion, leave it. Maybe the UK culture is different. Over here, gay marriage is still a big issue; it only became legal in my state in 2004, opposed by many religious groups who think their beliefs should be imposed outside their membership. That is what makes me angry.

No need, they put all their articles up free online. Just seach say the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times Online or anything else.

But yes, this is the main opposition to the gay rights movement. They have had what they could reasonably ask for and more. But they are being very greedy now. What they are asking for is definitely a waste of political capital. How dare they take up political time on things like the right to give blood, which has no real impact on peoples lives, whilst our collegues are suffering through lack of proper treatment. Are you starting to see why I am grated.

[Christopher McCandless]

Hadron, whilst you are abusing GA, maybe we can address your own issues of abuse.....perhaps that's why you feel the need to start a witch hunt?

Have you ever looked into it's effects on YOUR persona?

Imagine GA telling his story to a Sunday paper. Think it through. Then think how damaging it is to the AS cause.

[McGiver]

Hadron, whilst you are abusing GA, maybe we can address your own issues of abuse.....perhaps that's why you feel the need to start a witch hunt?

Have you ever looked into it's effects on YOUR persona?

Imagine GA telling his story to a Sunday paper. Think it through. Then think how damaging it is to the AS cause.

does GA have an ASD dx?

[Christopher McCandless]

Hadron, whilst you are abusing GA, maybe we can address your own issues of abuse.....perhaps that's why you feel the need to start a witch hunt?

Have you ever looked into it's effects on YOUR persona?

Imagine GA telling his story to a Sunday paper. Think it through. Then think how damaging it is to the AS cause.

does GA have an ASD dx?

Yes, from what he says. Could you imagine the article. I can see exactly how it would go down with NT's. Its the sort of thing that needs stamping out, along with the Neurodiversity arguments if we are to be successful. Our cause has to be strongly related to the black rights cause and nothing else if we are to gain legitimacy. A lot of people think we are faking it. With people like GA, who can blame them.

[Eclair]

Hadron, whilst you are abusing GA, maybe we can address your own issues of abuse.....perhaps that's why you feel the need to start a witch hunt?

Have you ever looked into it's effects on YOUR persona?

Imagine GA telling his story to a Sunday paper. Think it through. Then think how damaging it is to the AS cause.

does GA have an ASD dx?

Yes, from what he says. Could you imagine the article. I can see exactly how it would go down with NT's. Its the sort of thing that needs stamping out, along with the Neurodiversity arguments if we are to be successful. Our cause has to be strongly related to the black rights cause and nothing else if we are to gain legitimacy. A lot of people think we are faking it. With people like GA, who can blame them.

Black rights...and WTF do YOU know about black rights?

["couldbecousin"]

Hadron, whilst you are abusing GA, maybe we can address your own issues of abuse.....perhaps that's why you feel the need to start a witch hunt?

Have you ever looked into it's effects on YOUR persona?

Imagine GA telling his story to a Sunday paper. Think it through. Then think how damaging it is to the AS cause.

does GA have an ASD dx?

Yes, from what he says. Could you imagine the article. I can see exactly how it would go down with NT's. Its the sort of thing that needs stamping out, along with the Neurodiversity arguments if we are to be successful. Our cause has to be strongly related to the black rights cause and nothing else if we are to gain legitimacy. A lot of people think we are faking it. With people like GA, who can blame them.

Being aspie and being transgendered are two separate issues, which in some people happen to coexist. I think readers of this hypothetical interview could understand that.

[McGiver]

Hadron, whilst you are abusing GA, maybe we can address your own issues of abuse.....perhaps that's why you feel the need to start a witch hunt?

Have you ever looked into it's effects on YOUR persona?

Imagine GA telling his story to a Sunday paper. Think it through. Then think how damaging it is to the AS cause.

thank god for us that you would be there to give the counter story.

we should all be grateful to you hadron.