Discuss GalileoAce

[Christopher McCandless]

Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.

Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?

Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.

Ok. That makes sense. Then replace money with political capital, same question.

Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.

Gay rights have not been "solved" as long as gay couples are unable to marry. And, THEY need to move out of OUR way? Can you not grasp the possibility of someone being both gay AND on the autistic spectrum?

They are able to enter into a civil partnership in the UK, which is identical to a marriage in all but name. Some gay people prefer that status quo of it not being called marriage. Who are you to overrule them?

Personally I think the religions, including the gay rights believers, should all battle it out. But not on the public stage and not in parliament. Political capital should not be being spent on this. There are far greater needs out there.

[GalileoAce]

There are far greater needs out there.

Who are you? What gives you the right to determine what is of greater need and what isn't? BROADENED YOUR WORLD VIEW! Stop thinking only of what helps or hinder your cause. You'll be better off for it. You'll be more equipped to assist your cause than before.

You're are currently acting of half-knowledge and assumptions. Wild assumptions. This is clearly evident. This will only hurt your cause in the long run.

[Osensitive1]

They are able to enter into a civil partnership in the UK, which is identical to a marriage in all but name.

Sorry, noob mistake. Didn't realize we were discussing different governments.

["couldbecousin"]

What has religion got to do with being gay? 

Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.

Eh?  You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...

Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.

I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! 

Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...

I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! 

Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.

Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.

So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay?  

I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.

In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.

This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.

No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.

And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?

I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.

But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?

The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.

Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?

Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.

I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. 

I think you need to stop trying to put words into my mouth and making things as black and white as you seem to need it to be. Sexuality is a choice, as I have said. The most logical choice tends to be the one that produces children.

Now you need to explain why any of these groups have a stronger argument for what they want than any strongly religious group. Explain why they deserve it more. Rather than trying to roll my argument into something which I have never made.

I "put words into your mouth," that is, speculate about what you think, because you refuse to answer whether you believe anyone is truly gay. Since you keep talking about homosexulaity as a lifestyle choice made by rebels and misfits, rather than acknowledging that it might in fact be the natural orientation for some, I can only conclude that you do not believe anyone is truly gay. If I have misunderstood you, I would love to hear what you really think.

And why do I now "need to" compare and contrast the rights of gay people and the rights of religious people?

[Christopher McCandless]

I wish he would take you off ignore, only for the fact of, it shows he is strong in what he believes in.

Most of your beliefs are based on theory, not your own personal practice.

I don't see why he should take him off ignore, really.  Hadron is obviously a bigot who argues the contrary position regardless of the facts.  

I guess you could argue that dealing with Hadron here could be practice for dealing with ignorant bigots IRL when GA leaves home dressed as a woman.

The only fact here is that GA has decided to be a woman. He has made a choice here. Rather than deal with the fact he has AS, he has decided to make himself more socially ostracised and then blame society for doing so. Its exactly this sort of thing which undermines legitmate efforts to sort things out for us all.

I'd suggest you add to your reading GID - Gender Identity Disorder and Aspergers Syndrome.

I don't get the theme that GA is blaming society. Narrowmindedness, perhaps is your affliction Hadron...maybe you have AS and can't bend your black and white theories?

I go back to the fact that GA has had these feelings since a young child. If this is the way s/he can operate in the world and feel whole and able to contribute, then what skin is it off your nose?

There is no concrete evidence to support the GID stuff - just because a PhD says something on autism, does not make it true. Most of the stuff is just opinion. I am sure for every GID paper you can find on AS, you could find a paper supporting Jenny McCarthy or Autism Speaks's arguments. Pretty much all of them are bunkrum. You have no evidence, stop pretending that you do.

All people with AS develop obsessions and many hold some sort of delusional belief in childhood, ranging all the way from UFO's down to thinking that they are some fantasy creature of some sort. It is how they try to intellectualise their differences. The difference is that most people with AS, in the process of growing up, discard many of these beliefs as they come up with better explantions. GA has not managed this. I don't feel it is a good idea to enable him or anyone else like him. Over time his delusions have been allowed to fester to the point they have almost become his reality. Being a weak man, he hasnt fought his delusions and has instead embraced them.

[Christopher McCandless]

Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.

Animal rights could still be competition. It could be argued gay right haven't been solved. Treating them as a pariah is still written into the legislature of many states when it comes to marriage and adoption. Completely agree more attention is required for rights of the disabled, but unconvinced the government would suddenly be filled with an outpouring of interest if gay rights were no longer a concern.

I am saying that things would happen a lot more quickly and effectively - not instantly. Animal rights is something we could kick off the stage quite easily - its not like the autism organisations are short of money.

[GalileoAce]

Ok, I've had enough of Hadron telling what I'm thinking. Or why I'm thinking it.

Locking thread.

[GalileoAce]

Unlocked.

Hadron has his own little sandbox to preach in, so discussion here can continue for those who are interested, just as long as it's not about how I'm bringing down the Aspie zeitgeist or something.

[GalileoAce]

This is an interesting thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3271050

A quote:

-What kinds of hormones are involved?

Typically, hormones for male-to-female transsexuals involve the following:
- Anti-androgens (Cyproterone acetate (Androcur), Spironolactone)
- Estradiol (Estrace (synthetic), Premarin (“organic”))
- Progesterone (Provera) (this one is dubious as many health care practitioners don't see any benefit in progesterone for trans women)

Anti-androgens suppress the male hormone testosterone and cease masculinization of the body. Spironolactone specifically also has the effect of being a form of anti-acne medication (and is actually marketed as such for cis women). Estradiol is the main female sex hormone, which is in all regiments of hormone replacement therapy (HRT) for trans women. Progesterone has dubious advantages and disadvantages. As of this posting, the Sherbourne Health Centre's HRT Protocol does not include progesterone as a viable component of HRT.

The main reason why anti-androgens are used is because it allows estrogen to feminize the body more easily, without having to fight testosterone for the same amount of space and function. Without anti-androgens, high amounts of estrogens must be prescribed. High amounts of oral estrogens can cause blood clotting, cancers, and so on. While AA's aren't perfect, their side effects and potential damaging effects are far less than overloading on estrogens. And on the plus side, AA's also bring testosterone levels to normal female amounts.

Typically, the following dosages are used.
- Spironolactone 100-200mg (typically 50mg or 100mg twice daily) OR Androcur 50mg-100mg.
- Estradiol 2-4mg (once daily) or Premarin 4-5mg (once daily)
- Progesterone 100mg (once daily) (optional/not recommended)

Hormones such as this are typically taken in pill form, although estrogen can also be taken as an injection into the muscles of the butt or leg every seven to ten days.

If one has not undergone the "wrong" puberty, or wishes to shut down a currently-ongoing puberty, drugs such as Lupron can be taken (again, injection) to essentially shut off the hormone-regulating functions of the brain, therefore ceasing puberty before more damage can be done. “Puberty blockers” as they're known are generally not useful for any trans person over the age of 18 or 19, and instead anti-androgens should be used for trans women.

-What can I expect out of hormones?
It depends on the person. Some of the most noticeable (and nigh-universal) effects of female sex hormones and anti-androgens on male-bodied persons are:

• Much softer skin texture
• Decrease and eventual elimination of male sex drive and the development of a female sex drive
• Slower-growing (although not disappearing) body hair
• Reduction in acne

Depending on age, build, and genetics, the following may also happen:

• Breast growth (final size and shape dependent heavily on genetics, body fat index, body shape)
• Lactation (got milk)
• Puffier cheeks
• Redistribution of fat to chest, hips, thighs, face and arms
• Greatly reduced muscle mass/enhanced female-type muscle tone
• Reduced penile tissue (it's gonna get smaller)
• Reduced gonadal function (nothings gonna come out anymore, also sterility (although estrogen is NOT birth control - some girls never get completely sterile before an orchi or SRS; please have safe sex))

What WILL NOT happen is the following:

• Bone structure will not change unless started through puberty (hips, face, frame, etc. do not change)* (note below)
• Voice will not go higher (it will need to be trained)
• You will still have to shave (and undergo Laser or Electrolysis to epilate the hairs permanently)
• Your genetics will not convert from XY to XX
• Your testicles and penis will not fall off
• You will not grow ovaries and/or a vagina

* While bone structure may not change, fat and muscle redistribution over time may make the hips, chest, face, etc. take on a more feminine shape, especially if one has started in their late teens through to their mid-to-late 20's. Hips may appear more girly, you might start developing the right curves, and so on, over the course of a year or two. While these possible effects go down over time, you'll only start facing real problems if you begin over the age of 35-36.



Some of the bad effects:

• Spironolactone is a diuretic, which means you will pee a lot more than usual.
• Salt intake will also be a bit hosed with Spiro, and will most likely require you to eat more salty things.
• Potassium may spike with Spiro.
• Occasional mood swings on Estrogen, although no where near as bad as if you were on Progesterone as well.
• Water retention levels will go up and down even while on Spiro because of E. Welcome to being a woman!
• Your breasts will hurt. A lot.
• Your testicles may or may not be in occasional pain. This is either hit or miss for most people: some get it, some don't.

-Sex drive?

The female sex drive is very different than the male sex drive. As opposed to it being “always on,” it takes more time to work up to a full erection or to be aroused in general. Sex is often less “rushed” and the orgasm doesn't become the centre-piece of the sexual act. Orgasm becomes something of a full-body experience, ranging from slightly more intense than a male orgasm to extremely intense and mind-blowing, depending on how well the body takes to it and how well the body was stimulated before hand.

You most likely will still be able to get erections with a female sex drive, and your interests generally won't change too dramatically. The #1 sex organ is the brain. Estrogen might make you like certain things more than you thought possible (smelling the scent off of a boy will be very interesting the first time you do it, especially if you consider yourself to be lesbian).

[Adam]

an interesting thing would be sexuality. i know a lot of trans people change gay->straight, straight->bi etc once they start, but don't recall ever reading anything on trans people who are asexual. have you considered that hormones might alter your being asexual? just something that occurred to me then

if i took had hormone therapy i would kinda hope it'd turn me bi, but i guess you don't get to pick & choose

[GalileoAce]

an interesting thing would be sexuality. i know a lot of trans people change gay->straight, straight->bi etc once they start, but don't recall ever reading anything on trans people who are asexual. have you considered that hormones might alter your being asexual? just something that occurred to me then

if i took had hormone therapy i would kinda hope it'd turn me bi, but i guess you don't get to pick & choose

I'm panromantic, heteroattracted asexual (if you go by my current body, homoattracted if you use my gender). But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.

But even then...I don't think sex would ever be a big deal to me.

As a girl I'm gay and I doubt that will change, but I am open to the possibility of also being attracted to some men. I don't know how likely that is, but hopes it's not likely. But I'm still open minded.

[Adam]

But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.

this is something i've thought about myself aswell. i am not asexual in that i am sexxually attracted to plenty of women, but being trans obviously limits that kinda thing anyway. i mean if i wasn't trans i would be a fairly normal straight guy, but as i am now, most women (except maybe asexual women) would not be interested in a relationship with me.

how have reactions to your  being trans been irl btw? do you get comments off people when you go out or are you not openly trans in public?

also (again this might not apply if you're not openly trans in public) how do you deal with the awkward situations? such as when someone assumes they've offended you by mistaking your sex and then get all uncomfortable about it.. or when someone seems confused about what gender you are... have you had that yet? that is a problem for me at uni mainly

[Adam]

btw a good thing i've noticed about your whole approach (how it comes across to me anyway) is that you seem fairly confident and secure about who you are yourself. that will help if/when you start getting all the awkward stuff i think - online you come across as fairly strong about the whole thing i mean, whereas irl my social anxiety probably makes me come across as fairly weak/insecure about it, and people pick up on that.

[El]

firstly, if you want to be a woman you need to lose weight.  real women are usually really considerate about their own weight.

Only if you wear drunk goggles 24/7.   

Will you have to get a job to pay for the parts you have to pay for yourself?

I'm currently looking for a job.

What kind of job?

I'm panromantic, heteroattracted asexual (if you go by my current body, homoattracted if you use my gender). But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.

But even then...I don't think sex would ever be a big deal to me.

As a girl I'm gay and I doubt that will change, but I am open to the possibility of also being attracted to some men. I don't know how likely that is, but hopes it's not likely. But I'm still open minded.

I wondered the same thing since you came out as trans.  It surprises me that you don't know, either, though I suppose you have know way of knowing until you actually have made the change to the degree of completion that you want to.

Debating with Hadron is pointless.  He won't change his mind or be any less deluded.

fixed.

I mean, seriously, homosexuality is an organized religion?  I really think Hadron's getting increasingly batshit fucknuts with the passage of time.

[Osensitive1]

Unlocked.

Oh hey. Cool.