I hope Les has another heart attack soon

[GalileoAce]

You talk about your transgendered issues every time there seems to be an arguement over it here, how many times have you talked about how your issues upset Ren and your marriage?

I didn't speak about "my issues" at all this time. And my and renaeden have spoken many times, as recent as last night, about these issues and how it affects our relationship...Which frankly is no one's business, and that's all I'll say on that matter.

[Phlexor]

You talk about your transgendered issues every time there seems to be an arguement over it here, how many times have you talked about how your issues upset Ren and your marriage?

I didn't speak about "my issues" at all this time. And my and renaeden have spoken many times, as recent as last night, about these issues and how it affects our relationship...Which frankly is no one's business, and that's all I'll say on that matter.

I think it's an important issue and tied into your trangenderness is how you effect those around you especially the ones that love you.

[P7PSP]

Soph (for example) identifies as masculine, the preferred masculine pronouns are "he/him/his". Yes Soph is not biologically male. But that doesn't change his preference or his identity. Questioning his identity is akin to questioning one's autism, especially so if one's autism is part of their identity.

And if Soph was injured in an accident and unconscious with no ID she would be identified as a woman by Hospital personnel. You and her can't change the XX or XY chromosones even with surgery and hormones.

Being transgender is simply when one's gender identity does not conform with one's sexual characteristics:
Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, or neither) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male or female based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

In other words even the TG/TS, LGBT and BLT communities can't agree what is what?

This is not a whim, most people simply don't decide to be transgender (and those that do rarely are). It's far from easy or fun... Transphobic comments, whether intended or not, really hurt.

Sometimes life is tough. I am not going to refrain from laughing at the scene in the NY bar in Crocodile Dundee because some trans doesn't like it. There are too fucking many do gooder advocacy groups running around looking for things to be offended by for me to care to keep up with it.

As such the terms "Male" and "Female" are absurd and almost entirely meaningless.

Just because you would like that to be true dioes not make it so. Sell that to the National Organization for Women if you are that bold.

Heterosexual:
Straight. Boring.

To you it is, some people like being that way.

Homosexual:
Attracted to people of the same gender/sex.

How is this not as equally boring as being Heterosexual is to an Asexual like you?

Pansexual:
Here's where it gets interesting. Pansexual (and same for Panromantic without sexual component) are attracted to anyone. Of any gender expression. In any form. They can form a relationship with any person, animal or whatever else regardless of their gender.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_the_prefix_pan

I hope you've learned something...But if not and you still hold to your bigot opinions it would be best if you kept them to yourselves.

Fuck off you self righteous cunt.  Start your own internet forum and you can restrict any expression you don't like.

[GalileoAce]

I think it's an important issue and tied into your trangenderness is how you effect those around you especially the ones that love you.

Yes, but it's not an issue I'm obliged to discuss in public.

Soph (for example) identifies as masculine, the preferred masculine pronouns are "he/him/his". Yes Soph is not biologically male. But that doesn't change his preference or his identity. Questioning his identity is akin to questioning one's autism, especially so if one's autism is part of their identity.

And if Soph was injured in an accident and unconscious with no ID she would be identified as a woman by Hospital personnel. You and her can't change the XX or XY chromosones even with surgery and hormones.

Ok. Sure. Chromosomes determine your sex/gender. You can go with that argument if you like. But you'll find yourself short when encountering an intersex person... A biological woman with XY chromosomes, for example. Or say an XXY person...

Being transgender is simply when one's gender identity does not conform with one's sexual characteristics:
Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, or neither) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male or female based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

In other words even the TG/TS, LGBT and BLT communities can't agree what is what?

DSG is a better term; Diverse Sexuality And Gender.  But yes, everyone has their own specific definition. But same would be for almost every label-based community. Even autism.

This is not a whim, most people simply don't decide to be transgender (and those that do rarely are). It's far from easy or fun... Transphobic comments, whether intended or not, really hurt.

Sometimes life is tough. I am not going to refrain from laughing at the scene in the NY bar in Crocodile Dundee because some trans doesn't like it. There are too fucking many do gooder advocacy groups running around looking for things to be offended by for me to care to keep up with it.

That's your choice. I just hope, for your sake, you're not too surprised when someone knocks your block off.

As such the terms "Male" and "Female" are absurd and almost entirely meaningless.

Just because you would like that to be true dioes not make it so. Sell that to the National Organization for Women if you are that bold.

And just because you believe it not to be so doesn't mean it isn't. The way we view the world is a sum of perceptions.

And I'd gladly sell it to any organistion. And NOW, being a feminist organisation would likely gladly buy it. Gender roles are the biggest issues facing feminists. Gender roles that assume that women are soft and emotional, whilst men are hard and stoic. Women stay in the kitchen whilst men go to work (subverted in now days). Women can't serve as a front line soldier. Gender roles stifle expression and individuality.

Heterosexual:
Straight. Boring.

To you it is, some people like being that way.

The ' ' generally means I was joking. I don't really think being straight is boring. But it's not as interesting as the way sexualities, to me anyway.

Homosexual:
Attracted to people of the same gender/sex.

How is this not as equally boring as being Heterosexual is to an Asexual like you?

It's different. And difficult to be accepted in society (more so now days than some years ago), which makes it more interesting to me.

Pansexual:
Here's where it gets interesting. Pansexual (and same for Panromantic without sexual component) are attracted to anyone. Of any gender expression. In any form. They can form a relationship with any person, animal or whatever else regardless of their gender.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_the_prefix_pan

So you're agreeing with me?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_the_prefix_pan

I hope you've learned something...But if not and you still hold to your bigot opinions it would be best if you kept them to yourselves.

Fuck off you self righteous cunt.  Start your own internet forum and you can restrict any expression you don't like.[/quote]

So you admit to being a bigot?

[GalileoAce]

Ok. Sure. Chromosomes determine your sex/gender. You can go with that argument if you like. But you'll find yourself short when encountering an intersex person... A biological woman with XY chromosomes, for example. Or say an XXY person...

Intersex conditions aren't as uncommon as people might assume. About 1% of births are intersex to some degree. Sure that seems like a small number but, for example, say you've got a small city with 250,000 people. Of those people, 2,500 are going to be intersex in some way.

There's a condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. It occurs about 1 in 20,000. In this set of disorders mutations of the gene encoding on the androgen receptors prevent the XY fetus from beginning development as a male, and thus the body continues to develop as a female. The AIS may not be discovered until much later in life, such as when trying to conceive a child.

An CAIS (complete AIS) female is still a female despite Her XY chromosomes and undescended testicles, and may still identify as female despite learning of her AIS condition.

According to PPK any CAIS woman is a man, despite her physical appearance. And yet he struggles to see someone like Soph as a male despite his physical appearence. Nice going hypocrite.
(which would make me, a hypocrite, a hypocrite for calling him a hypocrite, but I'm a hypocrite, so it's ok.. )

Gender is not as simple as looking down one's pants or checking the chromosomes as the CAIS cases clearly illustrate.

Millions of people compete in sport every year. And thousands of new athletes coming up to the professional stage every year. 1% of 1 million is 100,000. 1% of 1000, is 10. So every year there's at least athletes that are in some way intersex. Many, if not all, sports bodies have some of sort of gender testing, which as I said, isn't as simple as looking down one's pants.

For example; Caster Semenya was one such young athlete. But her gender testing seems to indicate that she is AIS or CAIS. But does that mean she's not allowed to compete? Not even IAAF knows for sure.

The ministry did not say if she would be allowed to compete as a woman but they did note that the IAAF's threshold for when a female is considered ineligible to compete as a woman is unclear.

And someone like Jim Sincalir, an autism activist, is intersex. Raised as a girl, Jim now identifies as neuter. Neither gender.


Gender Identity is even more complex than gender testing... And is an almost wholly personal thing.

I really can't give me own insight on this topic, as I'm really still learning.

Perhaps these Wiki pages will be of use in your education:
Gender Identity
Gender Verification in Sports

[Christopher McCandless]

Anorexia is something that if you are psychologically strong enough, you can fight off and many people do; hence how it becomes a lifestyle choice, along with the LGBT stuff. The same cannot be said for AIDS, AS and so on.

The only way being trans is a lifestyle choice is in that I have the guts to live openly as a transgendered person, despite the problems that causes me pretty much every day (and no, I don't moan about it on this forum. I don't think I ever even mention those problems as I try to just ignore it)

AS at 19 (was it). TG at 21. No wonder people find it hard to take you seriously. Even worse, your behavior (and the sizable chunk of people on the spectrum like you) really undermines our credibility as people on the spectrum. Congratulations.

It takes a lot to live openly as a trans person. That's the only lifestyle choice really (the same for gay people). Whether you choose to be yourself or choose to hide because of people like you. And I don't blame those who choose to hide it. It can be extremely difficult IRL (dangerous sometimes as well, although probably more so for transwomen).

It is not about being yourself, it is about a lifestyle choice. No one here has presented any evidence that being trans is anything but a lifestyle choice. Why? Because it is one.

TG at 21? lol I've been open about being trans since I was 17, and can look back at my childhood and see it there too, I just didn't know what it was back then.

And what's wrong with getting a late diagnosis, hadron? Lots of people do. I was able to hide a lot of my problems when I was in school. I'm more proud of my achievements so far than I would be if I was in your position mate.

I am sure Amanda Baggs would throw me that line too. The difference is, because of my own choices, I am very likely to have a nice job and life 5 years from now. Where are you? Where are you going to be? That is what you should be seriously thinking about, not friviloties such as reineventing your sexuality.

[Christopher McCandless]

The transgendered bashing is making you guys sound like a bunch of fucking assholes. You don't have any idea what it is to be TG. I've spent a lot of years working in the LGBT community and have seen the struggles people go through. Soph is very secure in his sexuality and he sure as hell can fight his own battles. But this is a topic near and dear to my heart. I don't appreciate being bashed for my bi-sexuality and I can't stand by and see someone else who comes from the same community get bashed for where they fall on the sexual spectrum. And to think these comments come from people I have respect for.

You could make an identical argument about Anorexia, if you want to see the big flaws in your "logic".

TG is just another cop out for people with AS (and others) who are not brave enough to stand for who they actually are. Just like religion and a mulititude of other self-righteous ideologies.

it doesn't have to be, hadron. The problem arises when it is *used* as a cop-out, either by the person herself or somebody near her, but then, a multitude of conditions (from AS to TG to anorexia, etc) can be used for that same purpose.

I have no idea what it is like to be TG but it seems to me that Soph is not using it as a cop-out; if anything, she seems to be fairly secure in whatever she is. Bint, on the other hand, seems to be less confident and my guess is that it's why she resorts to posting all those pics.

No the difference between Anorexia (asides it being bad for you - though some girls beg to differ) and TG/ whatever is that AS is not a lifestyle choice or mental illness. By endorsing all these non-conditions then we completely undermine our own actual cause.

I believe that anorexia is not a lifestyle choice. Don't know about TG but I'd suspect that it's not a lifestyle choice either.

Anorexia is largely a symptom of being middle class, 40-50 years it did not really exist very much at all. Now its in the vogue.

AIDS didn't exist 50 years ago, either. Doesn't make it a lifestyle choice.

There is a difference in the medium it traverses: one is through biology, the other through the social medium (along with TG etc).

Not according to the doc that dx'd me, a couple of years ago. She also researched anorexia and did not regard it as a lifestyle choice.

Anorexia is something that if you are psychologically strong enough, you can fight off and many people do; hence how it becomes a lifestyle choice, along with the LGBT stuff. The same cannot be said for AIDS, AS and so on.

Not true, again according to my doc. But maybe you know better?

Then explain how people recover from Anorexia - it is perfectly treatable and over time curable.

[GalileoAce]

Anorexia is something that if you are psychologically strong enough, you can fight off and many people do; hence how it becomes a lifestyle choice, along with the LGBT stuff. The same cannot be said for AIDS, AS and so on.

The only way being trans is a lifestyle choice is in that I have the guts to live openly as a transgendered person, despite the problems that causes me pretty much every day (and no, I don't moan about it on this forum. I don't think I ever even mention those problems as I try to just ignore it)

AS at 19 (was it). TG at 21. No wonder people find it hard to take you seriously. Even worse, your behavior (and the sizable chunk of people on the spectrum like you) really undermines our credibility as people on the spectrum. Congratulations.

It takes a lot to live openly as a trans person. That's the only lifestyle choice really (the same for gay people). Whether you choose to be yourself or choose to hide because of people like you. And I don't blame those who choose to hide it. It can be extremely difficult IRL (dangerous sometimes as well, although probably more so for transwomen).

It is not about being yourself, it is about a lifestyle choice. No one here has presented any evidence that being trans is anything but a lifestyle choice. Why? Because it is one.

TG at 21? lol I've been open about being trans since I was 17, and can look back at my childhood and see it there too, I just didn't know what it was back then.

And what's wrong with getting a late diagnosis, hadron? Lots of people do. I was able to hide a lot of my problems when I was in school. I'm more proud of my achievements so far than I would be if I was in your position mate.

I am sure Amanda Baggs would throw me that line too. The difference is, because of my own choices, I am very likely to have a nice job and life 5 years from now. Where are you? Where are you going to be? That is what you should be seriously thinking about, not friviloties such as reineventing your sexuality.

The need to work, to have a job is a western construct. The correlation between having a job and having a life is spurious at best. A life is what you make. If Soph feels he has a life then so he does. I believe you were one who once called me arrogant, or self-righteous (as PPK just did) and yet here you are, acting the Mr High and Mighty decreeing that Soph has no life, whilst you are soon to acquire one. Well good luck with the 5 year plan. In the mean time, Soph, and myself will be enjoying our lives, in the way we see fit.

[Christopher McCandless]

I can't know who I am until I've "been" experienced? What? Other people need to tell me what or who I am for me to know it myself?

Thanks, but I think I'm ok with knowing who I am myself 

No, you misunderstood. You need to be experienced so YOU can reflect on and absorb the experience. YOU aren't going to understand YOUR own sexuality untill YOU experience it firsthand for YOURSELF.

Would you call youself a marathon runner before you had actually run a marathon??

Have you had gay sex? If not, how do you know you're not gay?

Same question to everyone else on this forum 

When you say sexuality, do you mean gender identity? Because I'm getting confused about where you're coming from here. If you actually do mean sexuality, then I don't see why I need to actually fuck someone before I can tell if I like them or not. I'm pretty certain I only like women.

If you actually meant gender identity, then I don't see how fucking is the be all and end all. My gender identity is not defined by how I have sex, and I'm cool with that.

Why someone sane would shove their cock up someones arse and get gratification for it. Personally myself and others here would not rather try out that experiment.

All this TG / whatever is a lifestyle choice, just like going to church. Some people are naive and get sucked in, just as ever.

[GalileoAce]

All this TG / whatever is a lifestyle choice, just like going to church. Some people are naive and get sucked in, just as ever.

For most TG is as much as a lifestyle choice as Autism, or Downs Syndrome. People are born with it. Gender Identity Disorder often manifests around early puberty, but sometimes much early.

[Al Swearegen]

OK you all seem to have had a say on the heart attack thing and the transgender thing and what have you.

Here is where I stand on things.

The heart attack thing? Not bothered. Yup I had one 18 mths ago. Scary as hell at the time and was unwell for a good while and have bounced back. I am not sensitive about it and I don't feel that in the scheme of the fight it was a lowblow or hurtful or whatever. No real issue with it.

The transgender thing? As far as I am aware Soph is not uncomfortable with his gender and as much as I saw it pissed him off me flaming him over it I do not think he will be crying over it. Were my comments nice? Nope. They weren't meant to be. That said it rates in my book to have the same effect as calling a straight person gay or a man a girl or similarly derisive comments. In themselves pretty incorrect and without force. Sure you can dress them up with clever turns of phrase or nastiness but the underlying concept is at it's base pretty weak. The "power" is in the way the insult is received. Breaking it down to base tacks. If Soph is comfortable with his gender it really doesn't matter. Want confirmation? Pick a fight with someone who is completely comfortable with who they are and dress a similar insult about their neurotype, their sexuality or their gender. See the reaction. Now try the same thing with someone who isn't. The reaction is different the insult the same. The insult as a concept is a weak one. You are something we know you aren't nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. Pretty weak. Certainly not worth the drama or the cries of outrage.

The Paedophile thing? Again I thought in the scheme of things such a comment was in line with what was being thrown around. I was not bothered by it. Am I a Paedophile? No. Do I think I have to justify my position as not being a paedophile? No. Was it a terrible affront? No.

The OCD thing. Raise hands all those on the Spectrum. Keep hands raised all those with weird and embarrassing co-morbids. If you could look at all those in Intensity with hands raised you would see plenty of us spazzes with shitty special talents including Dyslexia, Epilespy, Anxiety Disorders, Depression, Social Aversion and people so wound up with trying desperately to keep some control and routine in their life that the stupidest of things get them melting down, talking to themselves or stimming. What a bunch of retards! That is us. For the most part. (OK Bint gets a pass on this but the point ought to be made). Calling Soph out over this is like a one legged man boasting to another one-legged man how fast they can run and how slow the other is in comparison or maybe how much more sexier their stump is. I may be wrong in how I view this but that is my value judgment.

The my Father being an Alcoholic? So what? He was and I am not going to cry about it. Many people have grown up with angry Alcoholic Dads. Hell I am not an Alcoholic and my kids are not subjected to that. Why then do I care? Shit I think again in the terms of the fight it was a reasonable exchange.

Lily the Dog? Star of much DogSpam? Ok I was more than a little pissed of with constant Lily spam. I am not an animal person and I honestly don't get this bonding to these creatures. I again am not cruel or hostile to them but don't understand why anyone would take a pet knowing it has a short life and thrown emotion and love and bonding and seeing it deteriorate in such a period of time and cope with grief. It makes no sense to me. In my mind it is obviously something a pet owner takes on knowing and is happy accepting and reminding them of this fundamental truth (which, morbid and in bad taste) is not a damning horror. Again that is my take. If I have completely misread this and it is actually more than just mere bad taste and morbidity then any affronted individuals have my apologies.

I think that pretty much covers most of the bases as I see it.

I have no real issue with the shots taken at me nor the ones I dished out. I do have misgivings that it has spread around the board as it has and would have preferred it to have stayed on Zomgaspies. But that was taken out of my hands. I would have preferred if it had have been dropped with my Pm back to Bint. That did not happen. I would have preferred it to have been addressed shortly after by the existing callout. That too did not happen.

I don't see any victims in Bint or me or Soph. I do see that the board has put up with this crap and without the benefit of eye bleach and with the people such as Tiger Girl, Odeon, PPK and Phex caught in the crossfire I do see victims this sits badly with me and this too I apologise for.

As for walking away? I just don't believe in it and I am sure to most of you that seems an immature response or nasty or whatever. If life has taught me nothing else (which many will probably throw your weight behind as a notion ) it has taught me to fight and hold my ground. Not to let others dictate my outcomes or to reinforce the belief that others can get away with doing the wrong thing. That includes an idea that if someone can maintain a holding pattern long enough they don't have to resolve an issue they just have to hold out long enough for others to "walk away" and be "better people". I think it is bullshit.

[GalileoAce]

The transgender thing? As far as I am aware Soph is not uncomfortable with his gender and as much as I saw it pissed him off me flaming him over it I do not think he will be crying over it. Were my comments nice? Nope. They weren't meant to be. That said it rates in my book to have the same effect as calling a straight person gay or a man a girl or similarly derisive comments. In themselves pretty incorrect and without force. Sure you can dress them up with clever turns of phrase or nastiness but the underlying concept is at it's base pretty weak. The "power" is in the way the insult is received. Breaking it down to base tacks. If Soph is comfortable with his gender it really doesn't matter. Want confirmation? Pick a fight with someone who is completely comfortable with who they are and dress a similar insult about their neurotype, their sexuality or their gender. See the reaction. Now try the same thing with someone who isn't. The reaction is different the insult the same. The insult as a concept is a weak one. You are something we know you aren't nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. Pretty weak. Certainly not worth the drama or the cries of outrage.

You make a very good point.

But I think for many it's the misconceptions, ignorance and bigotry from others, not yourself, that has sparked this discussion.

The OCD thing. Raise hands all those on the Spectrum. Keep hands raised all those with weird and embarrassing co-morbids. If you could look at all those in Intensity with hands raised you would see plenty of us spazzes with shitty special talents including Dyslexia, Epilespy, Anxiety Disorders, Depression, Social Aversion and people so wound up with trying desperately to keep some control and routine in their life that the stupidest of things get them melting down, talking to themselves or stimming. What a bunch of retards! That is us. For the most part. (OK Bint gets a pass on this but the point ought to be made). Calling Soph out over this is like a one legged man boasting to another one-legged man how fast they can run and how slow the other is in comparison or maybe how much more sexier their stump is. I may be wrong in how I view this but that is my value judgment.

Pot. Kettle. Black, in other words?

As for walking away? I just don't believe in it and I am sure to most of you that seems an immature response or nasty or whatever. If life has taught me nothing else (which many will probably throw your weight behind as a notion ) it has taught me to fight and hold my ground. Not to let others dictate my outcomes or to reinforce the belief that others can get away with doing the wrong thing. That includes an idea that if someone can maintain a holding pattern long enough they don't have to resolve an issue they just have to hold out long enough for others to "walk away" and be "better people". I think it is bullshit.

This is a problem. Having equally stubborn people who are arguing on a forum can literally destroy that forum... Though as renaeden said somewhere, this has certainly increased the number of people and posts on the site for a short while. Controversy'll do that.

[odeon]

At least Soph doesn't ask me for tips on how to act NT Hadron

Would you know?

Yes, cause Hadron usually asks me that

That's why you know how to act NT?

I didn't say I knew how to "act NT", I meant that Hadron asks me how he can.

I got that. It was an attempt at a joke. Never mind.

[odeon]

For those who don't have actual children, you really aren't qualified to answer in that way.

I've had pets die recently and sure it sucked, but if one of my kids died, I'd be a complete mess for many years.

QFT

[Al Swearegen]

Pot calling kettle back? Yup. But they got a reaction. That was what I was aiming for.

As for the death of the forum? Again I don't like how this has gone but yeah it has increased activity from just before I came back and Odeon was suggesting shutting this place down for lack of activity. It also will not destroy the forum. I think it has and will spill bad blood and make some strange bondings. In the end Intensity will be Intensity and we all begrudgingly get over this like we did with the Ahayes drama, The Cal drama, The Robert N drama  and so on. Is that good or bad I dunno. I would not like this to have gone the way it has as I say but I don't think it is a terminal wound