guns

[matthe]

My buddy chucki ruined my BB guin so he payed for it. With the pay back and some of my birthday money from relatives I got a BB gun rifle and a pisol. They came in one pack. it was $50 and their not bad. I like to shoot my dads beer cans with them. They also come in handy when we get big birds like ravens and owls in our yard.
why would I shoot them? becuase they prey on our 6 pound Yorkshire terrier and miniature-dachshund-Chihuahua. THIS DOES HAPPEN BIG BIRDS WILL PREY ON YOUR SMALL DOGS. Farmers in our community have lost baby sheep that have had their eyes brutally stabbed out by birds of prey.

Anyways here are my new guns. God i'm such a tomboy  





Their not real guns but still. those BB's can bounce back at you and you could lose an eye.

girls with guns are hot!

ive been drooling over bear guns again.
remington 750 carbine in 35 whelen (pictured on the bottom)

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[P7PSP]

  35 Whelen.

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35 Whelen.

Meh! The .338-06 can push a 250gr bullet faster than a Whelen can. 

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Dammit, I just missed a really good deal on a pistol I really wanted.

Glock 30, .45ACP.


Perfect conceal & carry weapon.

The .40 S&W is better for concealed carry if you ask me.

[matthe]

35 Whelen.

Meh! The .338-06 can push a 250gr bullet faster than a Whelen can.  

whelen 35 has similar knock out and bigger caliber for a more deadly shot on bigger game, with significantly less recoil, than the 338.

a quote from somewhere online (somewhat reputable)

35 Whelen 250 grain at 2550 = 32.6
338 Win mag 250 grain at 2,700 = 32.6

for bear and mountain lion protection in the wild, ill take the extra stopping power, and less recoil of the 35 over the unneeded velocity of the 338.

im not intending to hunt from 400yrds here. i intend to take out a bear or lion thats charging in short range. and the lighter recoil will allow for multiple shots if i miss. (25lb recoil for whelen 35, 33lb for 338)


but yeah, if im hunting elk at long range, id prolly prefer the 338 WM, or just a 300WM or 30-06 (more meat for eat, less splat)

for deer id definetly prefer the 22-250. although doing so is illegal in some states because of minimum caliber restrictions.

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whelen 35 has similar knock out and bigger caliber ... , than the 338.

.358-.338=.020" That's the difference of about 8 human hairs. 

a quote from somewhere online (somewhat reputable)
35 Whelen 250 grain at 2550 = 32.6
338 Win mag 250 grain at 2,700 = 32.6

Those loads are a little too hot.

.. ill take the extra stopping power, and less recoil of the 35...

For every action, there is an equal, and opposite, reaction. All else being equal, More stopping power=more recoil

(25lb recoil for whelen 35, 33lb for 338)

Those numbers are made up.

but yeah, if im hunting elk at long range, id prolly prefer the 338 WM, or just a 300WM or 30-06 (more meat for eat, less splat)

The .30-06 doesn't shoot flat enough for Elk at long range.

for deer id definetly prefer the 22-250. although doing so is illegal in some states because of minimum caliber restrictions.

That's because .22 calibers wound far more deer than they kill. A .243 is minimum for all but the smallest deer. .243 to 7mm-08 are the best cartriges for deer.

[matthe]

whelen 35 has similar knock out and bigger caliber ... , than the 338.

a).358-.338=.020" That's the difference of about 8 human hairs. 

a quote from somewhere online (somewhat reputable)
35 Whelen 250 grain at 2550 = 32.6
338 Win mag 250 grain at 2,700 = 32.6

b)Those loads are a little too hot.

.. ill take the extra stopping power, and less recoil of the 35...

c)For every action, there is an equal, and opposite, reaction. All else being equal, More stopping power=more recoil

(25lb recoil for whelen 35, 33lb for 338)

d)Those numbers are made up.

but yeah, if im hunting elk at long range, id prolly prefer the 338 WM, or just a 300WM or 30-06 (more meat for eat, less splat)

e)The .30-06 doesn't shoot flat enough for Elk at long range.

for deer id definetly prefer the 22-250. although doing so is illegal in some states because of minimum caliber restrictions.

f)That's because .22 calibers wound far more deer than they kill. A .243 is minimum for all but the smallest deer. .243 to 7mm-08 are the best cartriges for deer.

a)human hair=10 micrimeters=~.0004 inches

.020 inches diference = .0004 inches x 50

so thats roughly 50 human hairs or one half (.508) mm.

even touugh your math is off a little, i can agree with what you are saying here. its not that much difference.

in balistics though, a half millimeter is significant enough to mention. for example .41 mag vs .44 mag(.019 difference) is similar but anyone who has shot both many times can tell you that they are a bit different.


b) those loads are probably alot hot, and heavy.


c)there are many variables in recoil not just the weight of the bullet, but the weight of the gun, the load, the type of shell, the action(bolt or semi), barell length and rifling, etc.
so in this case the reaction would be different if the action(phisics) differed, even if some of the variables where the same, some are still different.

ive heard that its the case shape that makes the difference here. ie- significantly less bottleneck on 35W compared to 338WM


d) fudged or estimated more likely...they came from the op here...
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=36085
seemed like reputable info to me, and im too lazy to dig up any real info, if its even available. (if you know where to find info like this with truly controlled variables i would be very happy to see it. i love balistics charts)


e)depends on the gun, round, shooter, and how long of range.
should be good up to 250-300ish at least, with a good gun, round, shooter


f) thats because of shitty shooters, not the round. if you cant ensure a kill with every hit, then use a bigger gun.
but IF you are a great shot, the 22 250 will do fine, cause its extremely acurate at long range.

many states regulate deer hunting to centerfire cartriges only, with no restrictions on caliber.
az is one of them, allowing ANY centerfire cartrige to be used on ANY large game, including bear and elk



you seem pretty knowledgeable in hunting. what kind of kills have you made?

ive never been hunting for big game, but i know some people know that alot about this stuff from years of experience.

in typical aspie fashion, I learn alot of details about cirtain things (like guns) but have little real life experience in doing them.

ive been rabbit hunting with hundreds of kills(22 and club), worked as a professional indoor pidgeon extterminator(22 birdshot) close to a hundred kills, and ive shot shotguns, rifles, pistols, revolvers, and even a fully-auto. 12ga,20ga,410ga,30-06,22-250,300 weatherby,22 hornet,22mag,22lr,9mm,44mag,40s&w,357mag,38spl,and 223, im sure i forgot a few.


the purpose of this gun is solely for brown (but maybe grizly) bear and mt. lion(big) protection while in extreme remote wilderness. not hunting.
i need a semi, pump, or lever action gun thats less than 8 lbs, portable, accurate and able to kill from 20 to 200 yards, and something that i can whip out on short notice.
ive looked at lever marlin lever, BLR, remington 750, and some hand cannon revolvers in 30/30, 450M, 460 s&w, and 45/70. am considering a rifle/revolver combo if i can keep the overall weight down.
i want something bigger than 338 but not TOO powerful. cause im a little guy(6ft 160lbs) with shoulder injurys.
something thatll kill a good sized bear or cat, with preferably less recoil than a 30-06(i know that last part is a little unrealistic)
also it needs to be new or relatively new. i dont want to fuck with a messed up used barel.

what would you recomend?

[P7PSP]

The pressure difference between the two seems nominal but in the Speer manual it shows a slight adfvantage to the 338 with 250 grain bullets ~ 150 fps. And with the same weight bullet the Grand Slam @ 250 grains is .33 bc in .358 versus .43 bc in .338. But I have always seen the Whelen referred to for short to medium range work. Never fired one. Aside from a 50 BMG single shot the most poerful rifle I fired was either a 30-06 or 7mm Remington magnum. They didn't feel that different to me in terms of felt recoil.

[matthe]

The pressure difference between the two seems nominal but in the Speer manual it shows a slight adfvantage to the 338 with 250 grain bullets ~ 150 fps. And with the same weight bullet the Grand Slam @ 250 grains is .33 bc in .358 versus .43 bc in .338. But I have always seen the Whelen referred to for short to medium range work. Never fired one. Aside from a 50 BMG single shot the most poerful rifle I fired was either a 30-06 or 7mm Remington magnum. They didn't feel that different to me in terms of felt recoil.

ppk,
  youre walking though the wilderness, just enjoying the scenery and thinking about the meaning of life. suddenly a enormous bear (900 lbs) rolls up on you and stands up, checks you out, and then charges. hes about 150yards away and closing FAST(30 mph).

what gun or guns would you want to have?

if you dont kill it before it gets to 20 yards, your best bet is to play dead and prey it doesnt maul you.

(any gun that is available for less than 2000 usd. ammo must be readily available. must be less than 8 lbs. fully auto is not allowed. )

[P7PSP]

I've never been to Alaska but I suppose either a 12 guage loaded with 1.25 oz Federal slugs or a Marlin 45-70 loaded with wide meplat hardcast 400 grain solids @ 1600 fps. I have a 460 XVR that I have put about 80 460 rounds through and about 200 454 Casulls.

[matthe]

the problem with the 12ga slug would be acuracy. i wouldnt want it to get THAT close.

45/70 is kinda out of the pic for me considering its about 150 years old. 450 marlin or 444 id consider though.


460? when did you get that? i wanna play.

i wish someone would make a lever rifle in 460. would be perfect for bears, heard theres some casul levers available, but ive also heard theyve been discoed cause a couple of em blew up

its mostly black bears around here, but if im gonna buy a bear gun id want it to be good for all areas. always wanted to go to alaska.

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ive heard that its the case shape that makes the difference here. ie- significantly less bottleneck on 35W compared to 338WM

Oooooooooooooooooh that makes sense now. You were quoting figures for the .338 Win Mag. I was talking about the wildcat .338-06. No wonder the stats you were quoting for the .338 seemed too high. The .35 Whelen and .338-06 are ballisticaly very close. The .338 outperforms the .35 in bullet weights from 250g on down for the reason you just mentioned. The slight increase in bottleneck improves the efficiency of the case. The .338 seems to be a ballistic sweet spot with the -06 case. It outperforms both larger and smaller bores.

you seem pretty knowledgeable in hunting. what kind of kills have you made?

Half a dozen Coastal Blacktail Deer, a couple dozen wild pigs and hundreds of long range Ground Squirrels. My best shot on a Ground Squirrel was 600 yards with my .243, 87gr Hornady V-Max @ 3400fps

ive never been hunting for big game, but i know some people know that alot about this stuff from years of experience.

in typical aspie fashion, I learn alot of details about cirtain things (like guns) but have little real life experience in doing them.

ive been rabbit hunting with hundreds of kills(22 and club), worked as a professional indoor pidgeon extterminator(22 birdshot) close to a hundred kills, and ive shot shotguns, rifles, pistols, revolvers, and even a fully-auto. 12ga,20ga,410ga,30-06,22-250,300 weatherby,22 hornet,22mag,22lr,9mm,44mag,40s&w,357mag,38spl,and 223, im sure i forgot a few.


the purpose of this gun is solely for brown (but maybe grizly) bear and mt. lion(big) protection while in extreme remote wilderness. not hunting.
i need a semi, pump, or lever action gun thats less than 8 lbs, portable, accurate and able to kill from 20 to 200 yards, and something that i can whip out on short notice.
ive looked at lever marlin lever, BLR, remington 750, and some hand cannon revolvers in 30/30, 450M, 460 s&w, and 45/70. am considering a rifle/revolver combo if i can keep the overall weight down.
i want something bigger than 338 but not TOO powerful. cause im a little guy(6ft 160lbs) with shoulder injurys.
something thatll kill a good sized bear or cat, with preferably less recoil than a 30-06(i know that last part is a little unrealistic)
also it needs to be new or relatively new. i dont want to fuck with a messed up used barel.

what would you recomend?

Damn, that's a tough one. A gun that's lightweight and has enough knockdown power for a Grizzly (Brown Bear, same thing) is going to kick the crap out of you. A 12ga Pump or semi-auto comes to mind. Otherwise a .375 Winchester lever-action if you can find one.

[P7PSP]

the problem with the 12ga slug would be acuracy. i wouldnt want it to get THAT close.

It is what is often recomended for fishing in Alaska though.

45/70 is kinda out of the pic for me considering its about 150 years old. 450 marlin or 444 id consider though.

My Hogdon manual shows 405 grain LFP loads @ 1700 fps in trapdoor rifles. The 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun can be loaded to about 2000 fps with a 400 grain hardcast.

460? when did you get that? i wanna play.

January of 2006. It puts out ungodly muzzle flash in the shape of a figure 8 because of the comp.  I have no practical use for it, I just wanted a giant fucking revolver. Here it is next to my 629 6.5" and below that my Les Baer TRS. I got rid of the fucking slim grips and put Esmereldas Cocobolo grips on it.   

[P7PSP]

Half a dozen Coastal Blacktail Deer, a couple dozen wild pigs and hundreds of long range Ground Squirrels. My best shot on a Ground Squirrel was 600 yards with my .243, 87gr Hornady V-Max @ 3400fps

Great shot Scrap!  Thanks for the info on the effect of the different bottlenecks, I was wondering about that difference myself.

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Half a dozen Coastal Blacktail Deer, a couple dozen wild pigs and hundreds of long range Ground Squirrels. My best shot on a Ground Squirrel was 600 yards with my .243, 87gr Hornady V-Max @ 3400fps

Great shot Scrap!  Thanks for the info on the effect of the different bottlenecks, I was wondering about that difference myself.

Here's the weird part though, when you keep necking the -06 case down, the peformance decreases at .30 and 7mm, then increases at .277 and, then decreases again at .264, .257 and .243. Internal ballistics is still a bit of a black art and what goes on iside the case when it goes bang isn't precisely understood.