Author Topic: 'War on Terror'  (Read 7455 times)

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Offline Lucifer

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2006, 12:05:39 AM »
lol !

Offline Nomaken

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2006, 08:57:47 AM »
I dont know what we'd add to it, but i bet there is a chemical we could add to it which would make it unrefinable.
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
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Offline techstepgenr8tion

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2006, 01:51:20 PM »
Another thing to bring up - I was just over my parents place and we were listening to Dennis Pragher. He was talking about the whole thing with what the pope said about what a 15th century emporer of Byzantine said about Mohammed. Just mentioning that was enough to get 7 churches blown up and get a nun shot in the back 4 times in Israel. He talked about the differences in the precepts of the cultures values. Jews, catholics, westerners in general whether atheist or otherwise, do their best to put morality (or whatever their values are on how to treat things or people) above face and pride. The muslim world just works the opposit - it has morality and values but pride, face, and honor come first. Because of that difference you can't even criticize their way of doing something without getting something blown up. If you criticize them for being violent or blowing things up they blow things up in response. He also had a caller who talked about the whole summer camp program they have in Israel where they try to get Israeli and Palestinian kids to become friends. Supposedly someone talked to this kids who'd had many Israeli friends and asked him what it would take for him to change his ways and go right back to hating Israel and he said all it would take would be getting humiliated at a checkpoint.

Looking at it in that perspective, again, its one of those things where unless you lay down, ignore everything they do, and just let it slide they'll keep blowing things up. The main criticism that many conservatives have on liberals with this issue is that multiculturalism, while doing some good things like discouraging discrimination and trying to get people to see the person first and regard origin or religion as if it were hair color, condemns the idea that we really aren't all the same and condemns anyone as speaking heresy who would claim that we aren't all the same (my dad reminded me of the professor at Harvard who got sanctioned because he said that women and men weren't wired the same, someone stormed out of the room, and he was being considered as anti-femenist - he was speaking from science and not trying to put women down at all but again - political correctness above all else). When people can do this kind of thing and so many in our country want to look the other way on it and blame America, Israel, anyone they possibly can before examining radical Islam itself - its a major denial problem and its a very dangerous one because not only are people that steeped in denial a large enough part of the population but they're voting on who gets in, who the policy makers are, and I really sincerely hope that even people over here really can't stand Bush that at least the majority of those who don't like him can still see these things and still feel that the war on terror is paramount. In fact it really makes me wish the History Channel or TLC could come up with a good show on England in the 1930s, the politics that were happening then, see how many people just flat out hated Churchill and probably spoke the same exact rhettoric that's going on now about Bush. I know that when Reagan wanted to take on the Soviet Union people in our country were calling him a 'cold warrior', blasting him on just not letting them be, history just repeats itself on that level and I guarantee that in the UK and even America there were lots of people who condemned going to war against Germany as much as they're condemning the wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan right now - it might almost be as bad when we far more than likely have to go into Iran next year some time, I just really hope that it's not an Iraq type situation and that many other countries who usually don't agree with us understand that the leader of Iran talks off the cuff about bringing in the 12th Imahm by hastening the apocalypse and has his heart set on doing so by nuclear war against the west (I have enough hope hearing that most of the people who blasted the Iraq war totally understand the need to go into Iran but as for the United Nations, I could still see them and Kofi Annin stalling us just as badly as they did with that situation).
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Offline McGiver

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2006, 02:03:51 PM »
yes, techstep is a confirmed ADHD.
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Offline techstepgenr8tion

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2006, 02:52:21 PM »
yes, techstep is a confirmed ADHD.

Hehehehhe, yeah, almost a shame I mask it so well IRL. Just hope the points I dropped in that post are at least worth a few pennies :P
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Offline Leto729

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2006, 02:58:07 PM »
I think techstepgernr8tion makes some very good points in the end.
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Offline McGiver

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2006, 03:14:02 PM »
yes, techstep is a confirmed ADHD.

Hehehehhe, yeah, almost a shame I mask it so well IRL. Just hope the points I dropped in that post are at least worth a few pennies :P

they are.

if i saw otherwise i would have called you on them.
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Thagomizer

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2007, 12:57:37 AM »
Hmmm . . . has anyone read "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)" by Robert Spencer? Pretty frightening stuff.

Offline Dexter Morgan

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2007, 01:08:44 AM »
How do you define Islamism?

Offline odeon

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2007, 02:05:27 AM »
How do you define Islamism?

Quote
Islamism
     n 1: a fundamentalist Islamic revivalist movement generally
          characterized by moral conservatism and the literal
          interpretation of the Koran and the attempt to implement
          Islamic values in all aspects of life
     2: the religion of Muslims collectively which governs their
        civilization and way of life; the predominant religion of
        northern Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan and Indonesia
        [syn: Islam, Muslimism, Muhammadanism, Mohammedanism,
         Mohammadanism]
     3: the monotheistic religion of Muslims founded in Arabia in
        the 7th century and based on the teachings of Muhammad as
        laid down in the Koran; "the term Muhammadanism is
        offensive to Muslims who believe that Allah, not Muhammad,
        founded their religion" [syn: Islam, Mohammedanism, Muhammadanism,
         Muslimism]
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Offline Peter

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2007, 04:08:33 AM »
I dont know what we'd add to it, but i bet there is a chemical we could add to it which would make it unrefinable.

I'd suggest adding radioisotopes with a half life of 10 years or so.  That way, nobody's harmed as long as the oil stays in the ground, and the oil will eventually become usable again, after the shift to renewables, when it'll be used mainly for chemical feedstocks rather than as a source of energy.
Quote
14:10 - Moarskrillex42: She said something about knowing why I wanted to move to Glasgow when she came in. She plopped down on my bed and told me to go ahead and open it for her.

14:11 - Peter5930: So, she thought I was your lover and that I was sending you a box full of sex toys, and that you wanted to move to Glasgow to be with me?

Offline El_Genie

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2007, 01:35:54 AM »
As I recall, this fiasco began as "a war on terrorism", following the hijacking of four aircraft which culminated in the destruction of much of the World Trade Center and surrounding area in New York, and damage to one fifth of the Pentagon. The target was terrorists, whosoever they may be. One marketing-initiative later, the language used by (primarily conservative and emerging neo-conservative) press officers, ministers, and presidents became "the War on Terror". For some reason, most Western media had adopted it within three months. It was a subtle shift, but a skilful one. The message was this: We're no longer at war with a specific, but distributed, organised cabal of terrorists, we're at war with an ideology.

I pose this question: Was the world-wide terrorist threat posed at the start of September 2001 any more dangerous than it had been in September 1999? Or 1989? Or 1949? Since any sub-national group with guns and an agenda can apparently be accurately labelled a terrorist (eg, Hezbollah, IRA), and any national group that agrees with their politics is a "rogue state", it is easy to point out that there has been a high level of terrorist activity on most continents since the end of World War Two, or for that matter, since before the rise of the Roman Empire! There are many nations who have what would today be defined as terrorism to thank for a defining point in their history, if not their very independence or federation. (Eg, Israel, United States, France, Soviet Union, China, I could type my fingers off...) The point of this is that in posing the question "was terrorism in 09/2001 a greater threat than before then?", you are committing somehow tallying up all the terrorists, or rating the level of their threat based on entirely subjective and arbitrary criteria. It's an impossible and (more to the point) meaningless task.

At this point, it becomes a matter of perogatives: There are certainly terrorists out there (call them what you will), and indeed, many of them wish me harm. If I wanted to live in a repressed religious oligarchy, I'd renounce my evil ways and move to the Vatican. Thus, while terrorists will assert their perogative to kill and maim people in order to impose their ideals on me, the government of my country (for all its shortcomings) happens to be good at asserting the perogative of itself and its citizens in defending our perceived national interests. We probably won't be overwhelmed, because we have bigger guns.

But nor can we ever win.

In changing "the enemy" from an organised group of nutjobs with guns, an agenda, and a name ("Al Quaeda") to an ideology, participating nations guaranteed themselves a war that they could never win. Short of total media control (I'll leave that one for another day), there is no way to kill off a virulant idea or philosophy once the cat is out of the bag. For example, even with WW2 a sixty-plus-year old memory, no-one has even tried to exterminate the idea of Nazism. It's certainly been demonised and is not particularly popular these days, but the ideology exists all the same, and it's there for anyone who happens to like it to adopt.

This brings me back to my original question. Was the terrorist threat truly greater in September 2001 than ever before? My guess is not really. Previously, the policy of most governments had been to meet direct challenges directly and without remorse, which is a good way of asserting yourself as a nation and a power. We'd launch a few missiles, or a few hundred, cut off their supply lines, and then ignore them. Remember the face that launched a thousand missiles? No? *shrug* My point is this: In turning a war on terrorism to the War on Terror - an inherently and intentionally unwinnable conflict - the participating governments gave their (very real) enemies the biggest and best publicity job they ever could have. There have always been terrorists everywhere. There always will be. But after the United States' war on terrorism became the worldwide War on Terror, the various struggles of sub-national groups against nations the world over (for national independence, or by way of protest against neglect by ruling government) became polarised to ONE conflict. There was a very deliberate, and very successful recruitment effort by the Islamist factions who were the principle parties of just one fairly small civil war that was extended to all the others. Now in Aceh, Chechnya, and Darfur there are strong rebel movements with Islamist goals, who have coherent links of weapons, funding, and soldiers to each of the others.

This hasn't always been the case though. Aceh was about independence from the oppressive facist policies of the Surkano and Suhato regimes (which were, interestingly enough, backed by the US government to prevent the previous "evil" ideology from spreading South through Asia.) Darfur has been problematic since famine in the 1970s, and the economic neglect of the region by the Sudanese central government was the cause. The Chechen dispute cropped up at the same time as the former Soviet satelites were declaring independence during the breakup of the Soviet Union. Chechnya's problem? They were too small to stand as a nation, either as Moscow's friend, or as an enemy, and their independence would be both a security threat to Russia from without, and from within, should any other the other hundreds of little client-nations that Russia is made from want to follow their example and secede. The thing these three conflicts do have in common is Islam: There are significant Muslim populations in all three areas, and has  been since well before their respective conflicts started.

The nature of rebellion is that you don't have a lot of friends. By becoming a rebel, you're declaring your opposition to the people in charge. All your admirers abroad (if you have any) have to go through the guy you're fighting if they want to do business at all. For this reason, most rebel movements are lucky to get any meaninful support from a well established nation: It's just not politically or financially expedient to be seen to be trying to dethrone the guy you're selling your merchandise to. You could risk a direct, covert approach (Eg, the fun excursions taken c/- the CIA chequebook), or more likely, wait to see if the rebels win, and if they do, recognise and start doing business with them. They call this "diplomacy". While the rebels in Chechnya and Aceh certainly had the "moral support" of some Western governments in the past, it couldn't translate into any meaningful backup for reasons just outlined.

              ...And then some fellow from Afghanistan showed up with $100,000 worth of diamonds in his suitcase, some literature, and a sales-pitch that was too good to refuse: "Would you like to join our club? We have funding, weapons, and we're the same religion as you. You already know who we are and what we can achieve: We blew up Americans in the towers. When was the last time the Americans helped you, I wonder?" They already had all the good press they needed, and with so much attention turned their way, they went from being obscure rebels fighting some hopeless never-ending civil-war in a frozen, mountainous desert to being the core of an ever more popular conflict of downtrodden Muslims everywhere against an arrogant aggressor.

The War on Terror is conflict of ideologies manufactured to be unwinnable. Born from the fires of the last such war (Communism vs. Demo... okay, Communism vs. Not Communism) it is a very real and very dangerous war. On one side are a group of disturbed individuals who intend to exercise their perogative of a holy war to convert or destroy all who refuse their dominion. On the other are the governments of the West, some elected fraudulently, others genuinely, others not at all. They intend to fight a war forever, but never win, as it serves as an ideal justification for imposing their will on the people they lead, with the declared aim of protecting them, and acting for their safety. The threat and war are both real, there's no conspiracy there. But it's only the war it is because people were so eager to be shocked into paying so much attention to begin with. Chances are, the less attention it's paid, the less important it will become.

Now I pose this question: Is terrorism a greater threat now than it was on September 12, 2001?

Offline McGiver

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2007, 08:20:22 AM »
i don't think so.

but if you are an extreme (rebel) thinker, then you are more at danger now than you were prior to 911.
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2007, 09:33:54 AM »
Agreed. The danger's not the terrorism itself, which isn't exactly new. It's everybody's paranoia.
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Offline zer0

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Re: 'War on Terror'
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2007, 04:11:48 PM »
Jill: How many "terrorists" have you met Sam? Actual terrorists?

                       --Terry Gilliam, "Brazil" (1985)
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