RAPE versus MURDER

[Adam]

Doesn't this show though that their urge to kill is uncontrollable and something they can't really help?  I agree, life doesn't always mean life nowadays so perhaps that is what we should be trying to change as opposed to self-righteously sticking a bullet into a criminal's head and claiming the job as done.

Yeah it pisses me off when some shithole gets a "life" sentence  of a few years or something. Fuck that. Some people you just CANNOT risk unleashing on society again.

I still don't see why we should bother paying for their existence though, when we could just get rid of them.

Who are we to judge how much someone's existance is worth?   It is not up to people to decide whether somebody deserves to live or not.

Murdering child abusers are not worth wasting a penny on. Put that money into the NHS or the fucked up education system instead.

[Blasted]

Depriving them of liberty is at least not as hypocritical as murdering them FOR murder.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-criminal or anything like that and would probably be the first one grabbing for the gun if I do find out that my goddaughter is being abused but I just think we shouldn't be so quick to judge each criminal.  Especially if the judgement could result in the ending of their life.  We each, technically, have the same worth as any other human being.

The NHS and the education system is already getting heaps of moeny which doesn't make it any less shite.  I doubt a million here or there is really gonna make such a difference since these fuckers have no idea how to distribute it well.

[Adam]

We each, technically, have the same worth as any other human being.

Technically yes, we're all worth nothing

But really a child abuser is worth less than nothing

Why should we pay for the consequences of their actions, when we could just get rid of them. They'd know what the risks were when they went out and did it

[Blasted]

We each, technically, have the same worth as any other human being.

Technically yes, we're all worth nothing

But really a child abuser is worth less than nothing

Why should we pay for the consequences of their actions, when we could just get rid of them. They'd know what the risks were when they went out and did it

That's a generalisation plus we don't know what their state of mind was like just before they committed the crime.  Say I was gonna snap one day, stick a knife into the stepdad, cut him into little chunks and set those alight - I know the risks of such an action and the punishment.  Doesn't mean it would stop me, probably. 

A child abuser is generally an abuser due to causes out of his control, whether it's eviromental or genetical.  Heh, this conversation will probably get me a lot of shit now.

[Callaway]

We each, technically, have the same worth as any other human being.

Technically yes, we're all worth nothing

But really a child abuser is worth less than nothing

Why should we pay for the consequences of their actions, when we could just get rid of them. They'd know what the risks were when they went out and did it

I think that the life of someone who is proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt of child rape and murder isn't worth a lot, and I would absolutely hate for such a person ever to be freed from prison, but I'm concerned about the number of convicted people who have been freed with DNA evidence through the Innocence Project.  

If a person gets life in prison and is later proven to be innocent, he can be released from prison, but he can't be brought back to life after he has been executed.

[Adam]

I would also be concerned about innocent people getting it
I'd have no problem with someone who's obviously guilty being killed though

We each, technically, have the same worth as any other human being.

Technically yes, we're all worth nothing

But really a child abuser is worth less than nothing

Why should we pay for the consequences of their actions, when we could just get rid of them. They'd know what the risks were when they went out and did it

That's a generalisation plus we don't know what their state of mind was like just before they committed the crime.  Say I was gonna snap one day, stick a knife into the stepdad, cut him into little chunks and set those alight - I know the risks of such an action and the punishment.  Doesn't mean it would stop me, probably. 

A child abuser is generally an abuser due to causes out of his control, whether it's eviromental or genetical.  Heh, this conversation will probably get me a lot of shit now.

I wouldn't say you should be executed for that murder though. I'm thinking more of serial killers and real bastards like child killers, torturing scumbags etc

People do have control over their actions though. I'd like to punch a lot of people in the face, but I don't. I know you can say free will dosn't really exist or that they're obviously insane, but then you could say that to justify anything.

Bank robbers are acting based on causes that are out of their control so let him get away with it. Hadron can't be arsed doing his work because his laziness is out of his contol, but give him a first anyway becuase it's not his fault.

We all have to take responsibility for our actions, whether we're fucked in the head or not.

[Blasted]

I guess those who are so fucked in the head they have no control over their actions are pretty much screwed when it comes to life 

[El]

I agree with Bint- setting aside any group of human beings as being subhuman and worthy of execution/torture/etc. is a slippery slope.  And like callaway is pointing out, proving guilt "beyond a shadow of a doubt" isn't actually all that common.

I agree that rapists and child abusers are a sickening lot.  Prison isn't a fun place to be for anyone, and especially not for pedophiles.

If we want to get into the 'save money by having less prisoners in prison' debate, how about we start by legalizing, taxing and regulating all drugs that are currently illicit (but are widely used ANYWAY).  It's perhaps a tangential topic but a more more practical one in terms of improving society as well as saving money.  Prisons should, IMO, be for people who have violated the safety and rights of others, such as rapists and murderers.

As for the rape vs. murder argument, I was talking about this a week or so ago, oddly enough.  My opinion is that both are evil, horrible things, but one irrevocably ends a life, while the other does not.  Don't underestimate the resiliency of the human spirit.  People can heal and recover from being raped, although it is, I would assume, usually a long and painful process.  You can't recover from being murdered.  I think it's also a little fucked up that there's an implicit message in the "rape is worse than murder" argument that most rape victims would be better off dead.

I guess those who are so fucked in the head they have no control over their actions are pretty much screwed when it comes to life 

True.

[P7PSP]

I agree with Bint- setting aside any group of human beings as being subhuman and worthy of execution/torture/etc. is a slippery slope.  And like callaway is pointing out, proving guilt "beyond a shadow of a doubt" isn't actually all that common.

The standard instructions given to people on Jury Duty is not "Beyond a shadow of a doubt", it is "beyond a reasonable doubt". The fact that I approve of POS Richard Allen Davis being executed, should that actually happen, is not likely to make me start approving of school shooters or killing NTs in the Lit/Hadron manner.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/pedophiles/1.html
So, Elle, Bint, Callaway or whomever, in this specific case only, where is the reasonable doubt? A long history of brutal crimes, his palm print in Polly Klaas' bedroom, a confession and he lead Police to where he hid her body. The amount of coincidence, conspiracy or bad luck that would have this specific individual look this guilty for this kidnap and murder of Polly Klaas while not having done it is entirely unreasonable for me to believe. I don't feel like I am at all out of line for considering Richard Allen Davis to be scum of the earth.

[TheoK]

I agree with Bint- setting aside any group of human beings as being subhuman and worthy of execution/torture/etc. is a slippery slope.  And like callaway is pointing out, proving guilt "beyond a shadow of a doubt" isn't actually all that common.

The standard instructions given to people on Jury Duty is not "Beyond a shadow of a doubt", it is "beyond a reasonable doubt". The fact that I approve of POS Richard Allen Davis being executed, should that actually happen, is not likely to make me start approving of school shooters or killing NTs in the Lit/Hadron manner.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/pedophiles/1.html
So, Elle, Bint, Callaway or whomever, in this specific case only, where is the reasonable doubt? A long history of brutal crimes, his palm print in Polly Klaas' bedroom, a confession and he lead Police to where he hid her body. The amount of coincidence, conspiracy or bad luck that would have this specific individual look this guilty for this kidnap and murder of Polly Klaas while not having done it is entirely unreasonable for me to believe. I don't feel like I am at all out of line for considering Richard Allen Davis to be scum of the earth.

But he will have more of a punishment during decades in prison. Death penalty only hurts for a couple of seconds or minutes at most.

[Adam]

I don't think anyone is subhuman. I just think some scumbags aren't worth spending money on keeping alive for years, when you could just have done with it and exterminate them.

I don't get why people make such a big deal out of killing something just because it's human. It reminds me of the anti-abortion retards who think that just because something is technically human, that means it's somehow sacred or way too important to kill.

Since when did simply being human mean anything? We treat each other like shit all the time. I would put the life of a gorilla or a cat a million miles above the life of a child abuser.

[P7PSP]

I agree with Bint- setting aside any group of human beings as being subhuman and worthy of execution/torture/etc. is a slippery slope.  And like callaway is pointing out, proving guilt "beyond a shadow of a doubt" isn't actually all that common.

The standard instructions given to people on Jury Duty is not "Beyond a shadow of a doubt", it is "beyond a reasonable doubt". The fact that I approve of POS Richard Allen Davis being executed, should that actually happen, is not likely to make me start approving of school shooters or killing NTs in the Lit/Hadron manner.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/pedophiles/1.html
So, Elle, Bint, Callaway or whomever, in this specific case only, where is the reasonable doubt? A long history of brutal crimes, his palm print in Polly Klaas' bedroom, a confession and he lead Police to where he hid her body. The amount of coincidence, conspiracy or bad luck that would have this specific individual look this guilty for this kidnap and murder of Polly Klaas while not having done it is entirely unreasonable for me to believe. I don't feel like I am at all out of line for considering Richard Allen Davis to be scum of the earth.

But he will have more of a punishment during decades in prison. Death penalty only hurts for a couple of seconds or minutes at most.

If that perception is correct then why is it that on the one hand you have Gary Gilmore, Westley Allan Dodd and Timothy McVeigh are the only Death Row inmates that I know of ( you might find one more if you look real hard ) to have dropped all appeals and actively lobby for execution. Apparently everyone else on Death Row disagrees with you enough Lit to file one appeal after another to stave off the Grim Reaper. This statement pertains to Death Row inmates in the USA since the restoration of the Death Penalty in 1976.

[TheoK]

I agree with Bint- setting aside any group of human beings as being subhuman and worthy of execution/torture/etc. is a slippery slope.  And like callaway is pointing out, proving guilt "beyond a shadow of a doubt" isn't actually all that common.

The standard instructions given to people on Jury Duty is not "Beyond a shadow of a doubt", it is "beyond a reasonable doubt". The fact that I approve of POS Richard Allen Davis being executed, should that actually happen, is not likely to make me start approving of school shooters or killing NTs in the Lit/Hadron manner.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/pedophiles/1.html
So, Elle, Bint, Callaway or whomever, in this specific case only, where is the reasonable doubt? A long history of brutal crimes, his palm print in Polly Klaas' bedroom, a confession and he lead Police to where he hid her body. The amount of coincidence, conspiracy or bad luck that would have this specific individual look this guilty for this kidnap and murder of Polly Klaas while not having done it is entirely unreasonable for me to believe. I don't feel like I am at all out of line for considering Richard Allen Davis to be scum of the earth.

But he will have more of a punishment during decades in prison. Death penalty only hurts for a couple of seconds or minutes at most.

If that perception is correct then why is it that on the one hand you have Gary Gilmore, Westley Allan Dodd and Timothy McVeigh are the only Death Row inmates that I know of ( you might find one more if you look real hard ) to have dropped all appeals and actively lobby for execution. Apparently everyone else on Death Row disagrees with you enough Lit to file one appeal after another to stave off the Grim Reaper. This statement pertains to Death Row inmates in the USA since the restoration of the Death Penalty in 1976.

Well, most people probably want to live at any cost, even if it means 50 years in a hell hole. I know for sure I wouldn't.

[P7PSP]

That's the point I'm getting at, those that have the choice to live in Prison or die by execution seem to perceive Life(?) in Prison as preferable to the Death Penalty. For the sob sisters even putting someone away on three strikes is too much. Apparently the Richard Allen Davis' who haven't committed murder yet deserve anoither chance even if it puts the public at risk.  

[TheoK]

That's the point I'm getting at, those that have the choice to live in Prison or die by execution seem to perceive Life(?) in Prison as preferable to the Death Penalty. For the sob sisters even putting someone away on three strikes is too much. Apparently the Richard Allen Davis' who haven't committed murder yet deserve anoither chance even if it puts the public at risk.  

But it's still better than in Sweden. The Supreme Court here has decided that the "standard" punishment for murder should be 10 years, which in reality is 6 years 8 months, if the prisoner behaves.