Terror Plot Foiled In London

[Lucifer]

i prefer "working class hero", myself...

[BeeBee]

Quite a few Americans agreed that it was a good thing to remove John F Kennedy from office but only a few approved of the method used. Are you saying that all of those people were guilty of murder?

Excellent example!   I shall have to remember this one.

+1

[Leto729]

http://www.lyrics007.com/The%20Beatles%20Lyrics/Let%20it%20Be%20Lyrics.html

Yeah for the Beattles.

[McGiver]

none of their sing-a-long songs. they suck.

i am semi cool with the white album, but not the song obladeoblada

[Lucifer]

i really don't like the beatles.  so shoot me.

seemed to me there was a definite split in the 60s/early 70s, which went beatles + the who vs hendrix + the stones.  i was definitely a hendrix + stones fan.  still am. 

[odeon]

I like both, should I get shot instead?

[Lucifer]

only with cupid's arrows.

(hah!  thought you'd confine my nauseating sycophancy to our own forum, did you?  /blows raspberry.  of course, it's completely  )

[McGiver]

i like neal diamond.

[Lucifer]

i really, really, really, really, really hope you're being saracstic, mcj. 

mind you, i hear he's becoming a bit of a cult thing, at the mo.  perhaps you're just a hell of a lot more withthe programme than me, eh? 

[odeon]

I think the Europeans here and there have had enough of Israel. But Israel is not the problem that needs to be solved. At least there is one Democracy amidst the sea of backwardness. You are very correct on this point. It is to bad Europe can not see that either.

Actually, Europeans can. Some, at least. It's not a question of either/or, it's a question of both. Israel may be the result of the world's guilty consciousness, but now that it's there, it's there and there's no point in polarizing the discussion in either direction. I support a Palestinian state but I don't support their methods to achieve one, as little I support Israel's methods to prevent it.

So Israel's part of the problem, there's no doubt about it. And yes, before anyone has to say it, so are some of the surrounding states.

Oh, and I'm not sure I'd consider Israel a democracy, considering what they do to part of their population. They don't follow the UN conventions they've signed.

But then, why should they? Their largest supporters aren't doing it either.

European Nationalism is dying rightly or wrongly.

I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps it's just tranforming to something else. Be that as it may, if nationalism leads to what happened in Germany, what happens in Israel now, or a number of other places, maybe it's better for it to die.

[Leto729]

The World is apart of the polarization Europeans have been a major part of that have they not. The U.N. recognizes the State of Israel does not. It is a member of the U.N..

Israel is not part of the problem as I said. Europeans have made it apart of the problems of this World that We live in the end.

A Palestinian State will never happen if they are not willing to give up TERRORISM any group.

Israel has been under the  serge of terrorism since 1948 have they not.

It not a American or European problem either what needs to be resolve is this problem or it will never get resolved at all.

How would You yet resolve it odeon?

The problem You Europeans are willing allow terrorism come for what and for what in the end.

Who is a terrorist state is it Israel or the Palestinians or Arabs the Moslem's that WAR AGAINST little Israel?

Arafat could have had 98% of the West Bank but never did take it did He at all what negotiations for the rest that He wanted never became did it at all?

Peace is nothing with what is going on is it not for Us all in the end.

Israel is a State of this World are the Palestinians yet a state the Europeans have wanted it but what has become of it nothing.

I feel for the Palestinians too.

But many use TERRORISM against the entire World that We live in is not.

We live in this World do We not?

So how come You are willing to protect Hamsa and the Palestinians that use TERRORISM?

Terrorism has been a problem of this World even in Europe too has it not?

Why play God or the Devil in the end?

That is what Europe and America needs to face does it not in the end?

How do You yet see beyond it all for Us all odeon?

Tell Me if You can for Us all here?

[odeon]

The World is apart of the polarization Europeans have been a major part of that have they not. The U.N. recognizes the State of Israel does not. It is a member of the U.N..

Israel is not part of the problem as I said. Europeans have made it apart of the problems of this World that We live in the end.

For as long as Israel uses excessive force, for as long as it chooses to summarily execute Palestinian leaders, for as long as it uses apartheid tactics to prevent Palestine from becoming a reality, it is part of the problem.

I'm not saying that the Palestinians are innocent. Far from it, and I do not condone terrorism in any form (and yes; I consider much of what the Palestinians do terrorism). I wrote this in my last post:

I support a Palestinian state but I don't support their methods to achieve one, as little I support Israel's methods to prevent it.

A Palestinian State will never happen if they are not willing to give up TERRORISM any group.

Yes, but Israel must also understand that they cannot summarily attempt to execute any Palestinian leader they do not approve of. They must tear down the wall (I'm aware of the Pink Floyd reference...)

Israel has been under the  serge of terrorism since 1948 have they not.

Yes, and they've also increasingly been the cause of it. Witness, for example, the indefensible acts against CIVILIANS in Lebanon taking place now.

It not a American or European problem either what needs to be resolve is this problem or it will never get resolved at all.

It is very much an American AND an European problem.

How would You yet resolve it odeon?

I don't have a definite answer. I wish I did. I think that Clinton was getting close, but Arafat was too thick-headed to understand this. Or rather, afraid of what his people would say about that central piece of property in Jerusalem that wasn't part of the deal that was suggested.

As for what I think, it should be clear from my posts. Tear down the wall. Stop excessive force. Stop terrorism. But that's very, very simplistic, very naive, and it takes a lot more to make it happen.

The problem You Europeans are willing allow terrorism come for what and for what in the end.

Not true.

IMO, the US during George W Bush's presidency has been the number one threat to world peace. No terrorist group, no single state, be it Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, etc, etc, etc, comes even close. The terrorist acts are highly visible, yes, and reprehensible, loathsome, and wrong, but they've been no real threat to world peace.

George W Bush's war against terrorism, i.e., his quest for oil, is far more dangerous.

Did attacking Iraq help anything? The Iraqi people? Democracy? Anything? Anybody?

Who is a terrorist state is it Israel or the Palestinians or Arabs the Moslem's that WAR AGAINST little Israel?

Both commit terrorist acts, as defined by the UN. And little Israel is financed in part by the US.

Arafat could have had 98% of the West Bank but never did take it did He at all what negotiations for the rest that He wanted never became did it at all?

See above. I think Arafat made a huge mistake, but it isn't as simple as you say, Kevv. Of course, the sources we have regarding the accuracy of that deal are fairly one-sided. Clinton wrote about it, but as far as I know, Arafat never did.

Peace is nothing with what is going on is it not for Us all in the end.

Agreed.

Israel is a State of this World are the Palestinians yet a state the Europeans have wanted it but what has become of it nothing.

I feel for the Palestinians too.

But many use TERRORISM against the entire World that We live in is not.

We live in this World do We not?

Yes we do.

So how come You are willing to protect Hamsa and the Palestinians that use TERRORISM?

I'm most certainly not. See above, and my previous posts.

Terrorism has been a problem of this World even in Europe too has it not?

Why play God or the Devil in the end?

That is what Europe and America needs to face does it not in the end?

How do You yet see beyond it all for Us all odeon?

Tell Me if You can for Us all here?

I think I've answered as well as I can above, and I believe that we agree on most issues here, don't we?

[Lucifer]

You dealt with alot people from different backgrounds for a long time, so I would like to hear your take on the "evil" Muslims in general.

sorry to take so long, trav, but i wasn't terribly well, and wanted to have a good think about my response. 

first off, i don't believe in either "evil" or "good".  it all depends on context, persepective, intent, and prior knowledge.  and that goes for both evil and good as abstract concepts (i.e., having an independent definition), as actions (e.g. shooting someone), or as qualities which people do or do not possess (a "good" or an "evil person").  i prefer to use Right and Wrong, myself - some things are one of them, and easily definable - racism, sexism, injustice, irresponsiblity, etc.  however, there are various shades of grey as well as the black and white versions, some of which comes under what i call "understandable, but not excusable/acceptable" banner:  some kids who've been horrifically abused whom i've worked with, behave in ways which i'd call understandable, but it's still not okay for them to behave in those ways.  etc., etc., etc.

so, that's the first bit explained.  as for the second bit - "muslims" - i still maintain that it's not illogical to lump a whole bunch of disparate people together into one convenient grouping.  i mean, just have a look at us lot on here: can you honestly say someone stating "all people with AS are..." would be even marginally correct?  not a chance.  and it's the same for muslims.  which is why i take anything which is stated by a "leader of the muslim community" - whether pro or anti-jihad, or whatever - with a v large pinch of salt.  it's quite simple, there's no such thing as the muslim community, or the christian community, or the gay community, or the autistic community, etc.  change -ty to -ties, and i might just start listening a bit more closely.

i don't claim to know everything about muslims (about anything, infact), but i do have a lot of experience working and living with a very mixed bag of people.  my personal take on different cultures/religions etc. is that there are positive, neutral and negative things about all of them, on both a personal and a political level.  basically, i have problems with things muslims do/believe in, but then, i have problems with things jews, christians, hindus, wiccans, atheists, capitalists, scoicalists, greens, uncle tom cobley and all do/believe in.  the point being that i don't subscribe to the "evil muslim" thing, any more than i subscribe to the "all muslims are wonderful" thing, etc. 

so, as far as i'm concerned, in this instance, the israelis are wrong, and have been compounded their offences over some years.  on the other hand, jews have been systematically hunted for fucking centuries, so one can understand their rage.  still doesn't excuse the way they've gone for lebanon recently, though, under any circumstances.  the situation is far too complicated and tortuous to be able to describe it in a few words.  and that's not a cop out - it really is centuries old.

does that go some way to answer your question, trav?

(and i don't give a toss if anyone thinks i did this cos of what was said in the blurb under the "lucifer's forum" bit - you can project all you like, anyone who does think that.  it's your waste of energy, not mine).

[Leto729]

I believe most Israelis, Palestinians, and Arabs what to live in peace. But a few do not do they. If the Palestinians and Arabs would recognize Israel and leave it at that and not use terrorism as a means this World would be better off. I think if the Palestinians and Arabs would get off there High Horse so would Israel in the end. Israel would leave them alone in the end.

The Europeans have played this card to much pitted Arabs, Palestinians, against the Israelis.

You know You can find Jews that have become Jehovah Witnesses  worshiping along side there Jehovah Witnesses brother and sisters that are Palestinian and Arab brothers and sisters together as one. That is what is needed in the end to get past it and learn to live in peace together not in a state of war.

War has never solved anything in the end.

[McGiver]

war is good for population control...