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Author Topic: Terror Plot Foiled In London  (Read 8950 times)

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le travesti angelique

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2006, 09:26:24 AM »
my first instinct is:
what is the bottom line?
who does this help financially/politically?


Why don't you tell us who it helps financially and politically?

I doubt the orders came right from the top; Tony Blair has been slated for sunning himself in Barbados while all this has been happening.

Maybe our leaders were trying to send us a message concerning the War On Terror. You want to know what I think every time I hear a story about a new Muslim terror plot?

1. British troops should not still be being sent out to die in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring "democracy" to people who don't want it. Their presence there puts British civilians at an increased risk of Muslim terrorist attacks back home.

2. Muslims don't belong in Britain.

Is this just what "they" want me to think? I doubt it.

What makes Westerners any better?

So if you're gonna generalise, I might as well play along too (although I do realise that generalising solves nothing but misunderstanding).

With rapists like this, I'm proud to be a non-religious citizen of Western civilisation.

Offline Lucifer

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2006, 02:04:28 PM »
bigot.

-1

You dealt with alot people from different backgrounds for a long time, so I would like to hear your take on the "evil" Muslims in general.

remind me, and i will - too tired to do it tonight, and it deserves more than a half hearted witter.

Offline Beowulf

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2006, 02:35:23 PM »
i personally do not see anything wrong with having bigoted points of view.

its human nature and it isn't really my place to judge someone else by how they think in order to give their lives a little validity.
same with drugs or alcohol.  whatever people need to get through their day i still don't see a problenm with it.

i don't see a problem with people espousing their POV as well.  i am not that sensitive a bloke to think that their may or may not be some truth in what beowulf says.
whatever people feel or think is their prerogotive.  i think that being politically coorect is worse than being a bigot, IMO.  because at least with the bigot you know where they are coming from and how they think.  with the PC person, their beliefs change with public opinion.  i never know how to get along with such dishonesty.

kudo's beowulf for having an opinion.  i appreciate the free thought.

There's nothing wrong in expressing a view, no, but I do see a problem when expressing that view can result in people getting hurt, however. Replace "Muslim" with "Jew" in beowulf's posts, and you'll be halfway to what the Nazis were up to years before the politically correct world did anything about it.

Liberals have been warning about neo-Nazi style anti-Muslim pogroms ever since 9/11. Well, they haven’t happened. Meanwhile, we have had Muslim terrorist attacks in London, Madrid, Beslan, Bombay, Israel, Egypt, Jordan etc etc etc.
www.thereligionofpeace.com lists 5,601 of them.

You see, liberals are more concerned with hypothetical hate crimes that might (they hope?) be committed by whites than with actual hate crimes committed by Muslims.

This is something of a double standard. I could keep pointing out liberal double standards till I’m blue in the face, but liberals will keep on applying them, because that is what being a liberal is all about.

You see, liberals want a society where every individual is “liberated” from shared moral or cultural values. Essentially, liberals believe in nothing, and they value nothing. To value something means to discriminate against something else. So, to a liberal, who sneers at old-fashioned ideas like morality, the highest good is “non-discrimination” itself (aka “tolerance”), while the greatest evil is dicrimination.

Now, the liberal sees Western culture as a symbol of discrimination by virtue of its very existence – its existence as the dominant culture of the West. Therefore, in order for Western society to be morally redeemed, Western culture itself must be destroyed. People who try to assert traditional Western values (i.e., WASPs) must be vilified, while cultural aliens who assert their values must be celebrated.
The double standard again – cultural aliens are not subjected to the same harsh judgements because they merely serve as objects that the liberal uses to demonstrate their piety.

And the more unassimilable and hostile these cultural aliens are, the more enthusiastically liberals will defend them, the more pious those liberals will feel, the bigger will be the politically correct lies that have to be told, and the more “racist” it will become to speak the truth. This is why liberals get such an extra-special kick out of denying the Muslim problem.

And since liberals have basically no moral concepts beyond “tolerance”, they don’t credit anyone else with any further concept of morality either. This is why, to a liberal, there are only three types of people in the world: liberals, Nazis and protected minorities. Any white person who doesn’t go along with the liberal belief in the meaninglessness of cultural differences is therefore a Nazi.

Now odeon has mentioned the Nazis above. There are many people who have learnt completely the wrong lessons from the Holocaust. They think the worst thing about the Nazis was that they “discriminated”, or even that they were white people with a racial consciousness, rather than the fact that they were systematic mass murderers.
This kind of helps explain why so few people seem too bothered about the evils of Communism, which has killed something like 100 million people in the name of “equality”.

So, anyway, in order for Europeans to cure themselves of their “intolerance” after 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, they let in 20 million people from the most intolerant – and anti-Semitic – culture on earth. How ironic.
"Someday a real rain will come ..."

Offline Beowulf

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2006, 02:46:03 PM »
i don't object to anyone having an opinion, mcj.  but i do prefer that it's an informed opinion, rather than one which is cherry picked, and "formed" (i use the word loosely) unquestioningly.

What is this thing you have about “cherry picking”? That is just a thoughtless accusation one could level at anyone who disagrees with one’s point of view and produces evidence to support their argument.

It’s interesting how liberals always think they are the ones who are being thoughtful and open-minded. I dare say I have read more about Islam than you, just as you have surely read far more than me about the evils of McDonalds.

Without googling, do you know what Dar-al-Harb means? Have you heard of Muhammad’s massacre of the Jews at Qurayza? Do you know what a dhimmi is? Do you know what jizya is? Do you know what a shaheed is?

The fact that the majority of Muslims don't strap bombs to their bodies is becoming increasingly irrelevant to me.
You can bet that every self-appointed "moderate" Muslim spokesperson who goes on TV saying that "terrorism is never justified" before going on to justify terrorism with a load of guff about the suffering in Palestine is not really a "moderate" at all.

What's more, 25% of Muslims in Britain say they sympathize with the 7/7 bombers. And that's just the ones prepared to admit it to a pollster!

So how is "moderate" Islam (if it even exists) going to magically capture all these angry Muslims' hearts and minds?
"Someday a real rain will come ..."

Offline Leto729

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2006, 02:52:40 PM »
So how is "moderate" Islam (if it even exists) going to magically capture all these angry Muslims' hearts and minds?
That is the $25000 question.

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Offline odeon

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2006, 03:19:36 PM »
Considering how much you claim to have read about Muslims, it's surprising how little you know. However, instead of banging my head against the wall in a futile effort to offer you a more balanced view, allow me to suggest you some reading:


Oh, and -1 for your continuing bigotry.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Beowulf

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2006, 03:26:55 PM »
Considering how much you claim to have read about Muslims, it's surprising how little you know.

Oh, and -1 for your continuing bigotry.

Are you making assumptions on what I don't know based on what I haven't yet said? Or can you point to any factual inaccuracies in anything I have said?

And have -1 for having a John Lennon avatar.
"Someday a real rain will come ..."

Offline Leto729

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2006, 04:09:48 PM »
I wonder why people are against Israel defending itself but the Muslims are using terrorism?
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Offline odeon

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2006, 04:13:23 PM »
OK; I will indulge you (Beowulf) this one time. I'll give you a few examples of your factual inaccuracies.

Here's a little gem from your quasi-rhetorics:

Quote
So, anyway, in order for Europeans to cure themselves of their “intolerance” after 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, they let in 20 million people from the most intolerant – and anti-Semitic – culture on earth. How ironic.

It's not one culture. It's never been one culture. The idea as such is absurd, it's like saying that all of Christianity is one single culture. As for "the most intolerant culture on earth", forgetting for the moment that it's not one culture, Christianity still tops the list in persecutions and general intolerance. For example, what do you think the crusades were for?

But this last little "argument" of yours is just rhetorics and you know it. How would you measure intolerance?

But let's take another one:

Quote
What's more, 25% of Muslims in Britain say they sympathize with the 7/7 bombers. And that's just the ones prepared to admit it to a pollster!

Compare the above with the AP report on this poll. It said (the bold is mine): "Sixteen per cent of respondents to the poll conducted for The Times newspaper and ITV News felt the July 7 bombers' cause -- although not their actions -- was just."

And, of course, you had to add a little extra to enhance your shocking--but wrong--number: "And that's just the ones prepared to admit it to a pollster!"

Not that I'm surprised. It's quite common for Islamophobics to do this kind of thing. The rest of your writing on this topic is pretty much the same. Hate, lies, half-truths out of context, cheap rhetorics, it's all there.

Now follow the links and read with open eyes. Give peace a chance.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Beowulf

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2006, 05:13:49 PM »
OK; I will indulge you (Beowulf) this one time. I'll give you a few examples of your factual inaccuracies.

Here's a little gem from your quasi-rhetorics:

Quote
So, anyway, in order for Europeans to cure themselves of their “intolerance” after 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, they let in 20 million people from the most intolerant – and anti-Semitic – culture on earth. How ironic.

It's not one culture. It's never been one culture. The idea as such is absurd, it's like saying that all of Christianity is one single culture.

You come across as the sort of person so impressed with his knowledge of the world that you'd probably come down like a ton of bricks on someone for mistaking a Japanese person for a Chinese.

Look, it is not illegitimate to talk about Western culture, nor British culture, nor English culture.

In the same way, just as there are Sunnis and Shi'ites, and Arabs and Persians, and so on, it is not illegitimate to talk about Islamic culture as a whole, not least because Islam divides the entire world up into Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam.

As for "the most intolerant culture on earth", forgetting for the moment that it's not one culture, Christianity still tops the list in persecutions and general intolerance. For example, what do you think the crusades were for?

But this last little "argument" of yours is just rhetorics and you know it. How would you measure intolerance?

Well, I could start by pointing out the fact that Islam divides the world into Dar al-Harb (the Realm Of War) and Dar al-Islam (the Realm of Islam), and says that Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the whole world, through force if necessary.

How would you measure intolerance, since you've seen fit to put Christianity at the top of the list for "general intolerance"?

And the Crusades might have been brutal, but they were waged to turn back and reverse the Muslim conquest of Christian lands. Do you really think they were the Christian equivalent of Jihadist wars, i.e., wars waged against lands that have never been Muslim with the absolute certainty that one day the entire world would "submit" to Islam? I don't

But let's take another one:

Quote
What's more, 25% of Muslims in Britain say they sympathize with the 7/7 bombers. And that's just the ones prepared to admit it to a pollster!

Compare the above with the AP report on this poll. It said (the bold is mine): "Sixteen per cent of respondents to the poll conducted for The Times newspaper and ITV News felt the July 7 bombers' cause -- although not their actions -- was just."

Maybe we are thinking of different polls.
Still, phew ... only 16% eh.
I would prefer it if the figure was 0%.

Muslims who say they agree with the cause, though not the actions of the 7/7 bombers? That kind of reminds me of all those Muslim spokesmen in Britain who have recently written to Tony Blair warning to change his foreign policy or put Britons at increased risk of terrorist attacks - and, oh, also asking for a bit of Shariah Law as part of the bargain. Not that these Muslim spokesmen condone terrorism, of course.

And, of course, you had to add a little extra to enhance your shocking--but wrong--number: "And that's just the ones prepared to admit it to a pollster!"

Not that I'm surprised. It's quite common for Islamophobics to do this kind of thing.


Oh no! You've nailed me!
I'm sorry, I thought that "little extra" was a valid point.
What budding jihadist would be dumb enough to tell a pollster they agreed with the 7/7 bombers' actions anyway?

Besides. have you ever heard of taqiyya?
(And do you have an internet link to tell me that's not what I think it is either?)

The rest of your writing on this topic is pretty much the same. Hate, lies, half-truths out of context, cheap rhetorics, it's all there.


It's all there? Care to expand on that?
I don't think much of your "fisking" attempts so far.

I can see that this exchange could drag on and on ...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 05:17:37 PM by Beowulf »
"Someday a real rain will come ..."

Offline Beowulf

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2006, 05:19:43 PM »
Give peace a chance.


The shittest song ever written.
"Someday a real rain will come ..."

Offline Beowulf

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2006, 05:29:02 PM »
I wonder why people are against Israel defending itself but the Muslims are using terrorism?

Good question, Kevv.
I could say more about this, but I think what most people in the West (although definitely not myself) find most objectionable about Israel is that it is an ethnically defined nation state.

People would be ok with this if they still considered the Jews an oppressed people. But now they are considered to be powerful.

Europeans now view nationalism as the greatest evil, and they are busy trying to dissolve their own nation states.

What's more, Israel sticks out like a sore thumb as a remnant of European (British) colonialism. People complain that it's an "artificial" state, but it is not much more artificial than Pakistan.
But, unlike Pakistan, it sticks out as an island of Western-style democracy amidst a sea of backwardness.
"Someday a real rain will come ..."

Offline odeon

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2006, 06:17:39 PM »
Look, it is not illegitimate to talk about Western culture, nor British culture, nor English culture.

In this context, it is, because the different parts of, say, Western culture have very different ideas about, say, terrorism.

Quote
In the same way, just as there are Sunnis and Shi'ites, and Arabs and Persians, and so on, it is not illegitimate to talk about Islamic culture as a whole, not least because Islam divides the entire world up into Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam.

In this context, it is. Wikipedia's your friend:
---
Dar al-Islam (Arabic: دار الإسلام literally house of submission) is a term used to refer to those lands under Muslim government(s). In the conservative tradition of Islam the world is divided into two components: dar al-Islam, the house of submission and dar al-Harb, the house of war.

Dar al-Islam and its associated terms are not found in the two most basic works of Islam, the Qur'an and the Hadith. Some modern Muslim scholars maintain that the labeling of a country or place as dar al-Islam or dar al-harb revolves around the question of religious security. This means that if a Muslim practices Islam freely in his place of abode, then he will be considered as living in a dar al-Islam, even if he happens to live in a secular or non-Islamic country. Traditional definitions tend to focus on which religion holds ultimate authority.
---

Read the whole article here.


Quote
But this last little "argument" of yours is just rhetorics and you know it. How would you measure intolerance?

Well, I could start by pointing out the fact that Islam divides the world into Dar al-Harb (the Realm Of War) and Dar al-Islam (the Realm of Islam), and says that Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the whole world, through force if necessary.

Read the above quote from Wikipedia. Then read for yourself how this issue is addressed by Muslims themselves:

When and how to fight - Islam Online (to answer a very common misunderstanding--one you're guilty of--about what the Qur'an actually says about <irony>infidels</irony>; do browse the site for other information as well, it gives you the other side of the coin)


Quote
How would you measure intolerance, since you've seen fit to put Christianity at the top of the list for "general intolerance"?

And the Crusades might have been brutal, but they were waged to turn back and reverse the Muslim conquest of Christian lands. Do you really think they were the Christian equivalent of Jihadist wars, i.e., wars waged against lands that have never been Muslim with the absolute certainty that one day the entire world would "submit" to Islam? I don't

I didn't say that. You did.

Quote
Maybe we are thinking of different polls.
Still, phew ... only 16% eh.
I would prefer it if the figure was 0%.

Quite a few Americans agreed that it was a good thing to remove John F Kennedy from office but only a few approved of the method used. Are you saying that all of those people were guilty of murder?

Do you approve of the war waged by the US, the UK, and allies in Iraq?


Quote
Besides. have you ever heard of taqiyya?
(And do you have an internet link to tell me that's not what I think it is either?)

Wikipedia's your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya
Also, read this QA from Islam Online. Oh, and this.

The question is, what did you think it was?


Quote
I can see that this exchange could drag on and on ...

I don't. Your Islamophobia is rather harmless, and thus not worth to pick apart beyond these simple exchanges. Now go read up using the links in my previous post. I can provide you with more when you're done. And remember, all you need is love.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2006, 06:20:21 PM »
Give peace a chance.


The shittest song ever written.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline McGiver

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Re: Terror Plot Foiled In London
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2006, 07:01:16 PM »
16 percent is still one in evry six people polled agreed with the terrorist act of 7/7 (btw-i am not familiar with it, i am just giving numbers.
also, 1 in 6 is, like beowulf said, those who admitted it.  it could be a far worse number.

still, 1 in 6 is a scary number.  that would be 3 people for every family living in a container. :o
Misunderstood.