Author Topic: Neurotypical  (Read 1582 times)

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Offline JustGiveIn

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2009, 03:28:59 AM »
reading back over your reply, I realize you wernt actually that harsh on me, guess I overreacted, Which I have a tendency of doing. sry

Offline SleepyDragon

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2009, 03:42:51 AM »
At the event I attended, one speaker suggested that neurotypical people may lack theory of mind toward people on the spectrum, as well as the other way round.

Quote from: Lord Phlexor
... its just that [Attwood] may not be representative of us anymore.

That's a positive thing. The sooner he stops being the lone voice in the wilderness, and starts being one of many voices with something to say about the way people with Asperger's fit into human society, the better it will be for all of us.

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2009, 03:43:10 AM »
Quote
And once you believe your thinking about the thinking of another about your thinking about her or him, you're landed in the world of gossip and make believe.

The land of make beleive? You gotta be joking.

This is why 90% of you arent gonna amount to shit out there. Let me present you with a super complicated ULTRA IN DEPTH example of 

"The Land Of Make Believe"

Suppose you know that there are two drinks in the fridge, Milk and Orange juice.

You ask your friend to grab you a drink from the fridge.

Your friend gets to the fridge and sees the two differnt drinks. He grabs the orange juice because he knows you hate milk.

He hands you the orange juice and you think to yourself, "WOW he didnt grab the milk, this guy really knows me"

So instead of just taking the drink, you give him a genuine thanks.

I hope you enjoyed your journey to the land of make beleive.

YOU thought about what HE thought about YOUR thinking and altered YOUR reaction.

Do I expect people to grasp the hidden obvious. NOPE  Ive come to expect stupidity everywhere I go,Ive realized that people just dont think Like I do.

 But hey I dont know you, this could just be a slip up

You're talking about a friend. Someone who knows me.
Next scenario.
I go to a dentist.
Tell him there's something wrong with my tooth.
It does not hurt, because painperception is different.
So he does not take me serious, because he thinks, that nothing can be wrong if it does not hurt.
So I complain again. And he takes a picture that does not show a thing.
So he wont help.
So I go in again. Luckily another dentist.
He opens it up.
Severe inflamation of the roots. And I need oral antibiotics on top of the treatment.
The first will still say that it was impossible that I had my roots inflamed, because he thinks he knows how I should react on an inflamation like that. Well, I don't do it the way it should be.

Next example.
Overload. And upset.
The pro tells you you are angry.
You say you are not.
The pro keeps insisting you are angry.
You say you are not. Just an overload.
The pro writes a report, that you are angry, clearly in denial, and not willing to cooperate at all.
Now, that did make me finally angry.

Something is organised.
I don't want to go, because I don't like it.
Of course I will like it they say,
because everyone likes it.
I don't like it.
You have to like it. It is normal to like it.
Well, I don't.

The automated knowing what others think seems to work with non-autistic people.
That's great for them.
They therefor think they can automatically know what I'm thinking too. And they are very very often wrong. (not talking about people who are really close)
I assume I do not know what others think. When I give a present or so, I will think about what she might like, but I will not assume that I know how she will react on things. I will leave the reaction to her. And in cases of people telling me personal stuff, well, apparently they like me being open to their own reactions rather than my assumptions. And they tell me an awfull lot.

For me, knowing that I do now know what the other thinks. And just awaiting what the reaction will be, is the way I cope in society.

And when I have to deal with professionals, I claim the right not to be automatically understood by them. Tell them to listen to me, rather than to think they already know.

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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2009, 04:19:52 AM »
reading back over your reply, I realize you wernt actually that harsh on me, guess I overreacted, Which I have a tendency of doing. sry

s OK

(Had posted that before, but somehow it has been eaten by the forum gods)
I can do upside down chocolate moo things!

Offline JustGiveIn

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2009, 04:29:45 AM »
First lets get a couple things out of the way.

The first point in your initial post was that 3rd level thinking would lead you astray, to the wrong answer and associated it with gossip and fantasy. The example of "The Land Of Make Beleive"
Cleary shows this is both false and that 3rd level thinking occurs often, most likely everyday.

Second in the current post you outright say t
Quote
For me, knowing that I do now know what the other thinks.
Although we already established that actually knowing how someone will react is impossible, Im assuming you didnt mean that literally or else by default anything above level 1 thinking would be impossible.

If within your thinking you come to the conclusion that you dont know, or the chances of you being able predict reactions is so incredibly low that it becomes useless, that this makes 3rd level thinking impossible. But the milk and fridge example shows, that while 3rd level thinking may seem complicated, its not and the amount of times you dont know, is minuscule in comparison.

And now to the funny part.

None of your examples are of 3rd level thinking, And they all have 3rd level thinking answers.

The dentist example.

Where do you think about the dentists thinking about your thinking and alter your reaction?
The dentist also does not reach the 3rd level.


3rd level- "You realize that the dentist, after thinking about your thinking has come to the conclusion that no pain means nothing wrong. when you know that despite their being no pain that something IS wrong. so you inform him of that.

YOU thought about what HE thought about YOUR thinking and changed YOUR reaction.

The overload example


well I actually wont explain this one because its worded exactly like the doctor example. replace real tooth problem with overload/upset and angry with no tooth problem

and the last example is exactly the same.

Probably for the best because I just dont have the time to explain everything every day of my fkin life.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 04:32:28 AM by JustGiveIn »

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2009, 04:53:12 AM »
you know my IQ? :P i'm not sure you've known me 5 minutes and you make all these assumptions of me based on a few posts. well done you. proving further you are a true spazz.
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
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"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
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"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
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Offline JustGiveIn

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2009, 05:43:28 AM »
you know my IQ? :P i'm not sure you've known me 5 minutes and you make all these assumptions of me based on a few posts. well done you. proving further you are a true spazz.

Gotta love the irony. Im not the mood and too tired to really rip on your fucking stupidity right now, so Ill just explain the irony here, cause I know you dont get it. Then Im going to sleep.

Do you REALLY think that I actually know your IQ, that I have a sheet infront of me listing your IQ? Do you honestly think that, or was your post an attempt to point out my own stupidity.

cause if you had actually understood the post where I commented on your IQ you would realize that I dont KNOW your IQ, Based on your responses, your lack of understanding across many topics, your constant mis-interraptions, constant pseudo-intelligent posts and general lack of awareness, I came to the conclusion that your the dumbest person here, with the lowest IQ,

But ofcourse my last post explained the concepts nessary to understand this post, so I can only assume your response will be equally as retarded.

have fun, Its a tough world out there.

-gn   JUSTGIVEIN

Edit- But what Am I supposed to think when literally every post in every topic of mine, by you, is flaming me, really. Am I supposed to like you, I could respect you atleast if your flames had some basis near fucking reality, but every damn time I gotta explain exactly how stupid what you write looks to me. you could be the nicest coolest person I could ever meet in reality, but on intensity your just another idiotic username with a passion for trolling my posts with ignorant psycho-babble.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 05:52:24 AM by JustGiveIn »

Offline Phlexor

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2009, 06:19:34 AM »
Dude, she knows you don't know her IQ. Way to spaz out  :asthing:

Offline El

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2009, 06:50:16 AM »
Quote
Nevertheless, he was at pains to distance himself from the aspie-bashing sadly evident in spouse support groups, and he seems to hold in genuine affection the people on


*sigh* I never understand why spouses (mostly women  ::) ) put all the blame on their AS spouse when it takes two to tango?
From what I read on those boards, there is more of an issue of women not wanting to actually leave bad husbands, and instead bitching about it than poor NT partners being hurt by AS partners.  AS/NT seemed to have little to nothing to do with a lot of the complaints.

Yeah- to properly troll it would have to be meaner, to be proper satire it would have to be funnier.  I mean, he is pointing out the obvious to an audience that doesnt want to hear it, but there's no edge or finesse.

Clarification, Im autistic and this post is not a troll.

The term was made up by one author and subsequently caught on like wildfire. Its not a real word and not even a official term in any viable sense. Neurodiversity IS, even sovanu could see the difference between the implications of the two. Then again sovanu's most likely a typical aspie.

do I expect a group of people who generally beleive everything they read, take most points to their most literal interpretation and are resistant to change to ACTUALLY get anything from this thread. nope.

thankfully not everyones so typical.
Honey, troll or not, you are rapidly making yourself seem like more and more of an asshole by how you post on these boards.

As as for it not being a "real word," neologisms have a tendency to become "real words," especially in the English language.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2009, 07:05:14 AM »
As as for it not being a "real word," neologisms have a tendency to become "real words," especially in the English language.

And the word "Jedi" is an example of this, as it's currently recognized as a real word in a dictionary. So it's plausible for any word used enough in common culture to be accepted too. Although that could be scary, considering how butchered modern English is getting thanks to txting.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 07:11:38 AM by Nexus »
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2009, 10:28:20 AM »
As as for it not being a "real word," neologisms have a tendency to become "real words," especially in the English language.

And the word "Jedi" is an example of this, as it's currently recognized as a real word in a dictionary. So it's plausible for any word used enough in common culture to be accepted too. Although that could be scary, considering how butchered modern English is getting thanks to txting.

 :indeed:

i like that language develops and words like jedi are accepted but there is the downside. :P
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

:blonde:

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2009, 12:04:31 PM »
As as for it not being a "real word," neologisms have a tendency to become "real words," especially in the English language.

That's one of the reasons why English sucks. Look at Icelandic. Same as it was 1000 years ago.

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2009, 12:14:20 PM »
First lets get a couple things out of the way.

The first point in your initial post was that 3rd level thinking would lead you astray, to the wrong answer and associated it with gossip and fantasy. The example of "The Land Of Make Beleive"
Cleary shows this is both false and that 3rd level thinking occurs often, most likely everyday.

Second in the current post you outright say t
Quote
For me, knowing that I do now know what the other thinks.
Although we already established that actually knowing how someone will react is impossible, Im assuming you didnt mean that literally or else by default anything above level 1 thinking would be impossible.
Wow, you're a teacher? See, that's what happens when I start thinking about what you might be thinking.
"Although we already established....." language of condecendent doctors and teachers. Oh, and don't forget nurses, "well well now, we have decided that we'd stay calm during taking our temperature"

Maybe you are a teacher, maybe not. Maybe you just picked up this way of speaking as a form of 'odd' language. I don't know. I can think what I want, but it's all guesswork.

Quote
If within your thinking you come to the conclusion that you dont know, or the chances of you being able predict reactions is so incredibly low that it becomes useless, that this makes 3rd level thinking impossible. But the milk and fridge example shows, that while 3rd level thinking may seem complicated, its not and the amount of times you dont know, is minuscule in comparison.

And now to the funny part.

None of your examples are of 3rd level thinking, And they all have 3rd level thinking answers.

The dentist example.

Where do you think about the dentists thinking about your thinking and alter your reaction?
The dentist also does not reach the 3rd level.


3rd level- "You realize that the dentist, after thinking about your thinking has come to the conclusion that no pain means nothing wrong. when you know that despite their being no pain that something IS wrong. so you inform him of that.

Nope, problem of the dentist is that he does not listen. He starts thinking instead of gathering enough information first. If he had really listened things would have been different. His problem is that he started thinking about what I should be experiencing. In stead of thinking about the problem. I did not think about what he might think. I reacted on what he said and did. Because I have no idea what he thought. Allthoug I realise I used the word thinking in the story. But he might just as well have thought: "What a silly bat, what is she up too, hope I can get rid of her asap". He may have thought: "Yuk, she's ugly". Or anything else. He might even have been thinking about his mortgage. Taking more X-rays than he needed. I have no idea.

Quote
YOU thought about what HE thought about YOUR thinking and changed YOUR reaction.

I did think about what went wrong. Yes, that is true. But not in the way of thinking about thinking.
Quote

The overload example


well I actually wont explain this one because its worded exactly like the doctor example. replace real tooth problem with overload/upset and angry with no tooth problem
The overload example, I gave the short version. The longer version is even more revealing how I don't know what she thought.
It was a psychologist I saw for the second time. After a breakdown at work. First session was no good at all. And I had stumbled upon articles about autism on the internet in the meantime. And that made a lot of sense to me.
Second session I had to fill in stupid forms. There was no logic in them at all. I could not do it. She said I was angry. I did not think that she thought I was angry, she said so.
Then she wanted me to throw the forms on the floor, because that would relieve me of my anger. I said I was not angry. She wanted me to throw the things on the floor anyway. To amuse her, (She was getting upset) I threw the papers through the room. She asked me what had happened. I said, the papers are on the floor now. She said: "No, now you feel relieved, because you could express your anger". I said, I am not angry.
At the end of the session she agreed helping me find a place to get diagnosed. And I picked up the papers and handed them to her. She was heavily objecting to that, because it would destroy my getting rid of my anger. (her words in my paraphrasing). Again I said that I was not angry.

She had agreed helping me find a place to go for a diagnose. She did not. In fact, she did everything she could to prevent me getting a diagnose.
I asked for her evaluation of me. There I found on paper what she thought of me. She thought I had more kids than I had. She mixed all kinds of facts in my life. There were more things wrong in what she said about facts than right.
And as a conclusion: Very desintegrated. In need of very strict guidance in daily life. Huge anger issues, denial about that, and very uncooperative. Patient has also the delusional idea that she is on the autistic spectrum, which clearly is not the case. (And she had said to me, that she thought I had traits....)

That is what she was actualy thinking. No way that I could have thought all that.
If she had listened, in stead of all this thinking and assuming, it would have gone a lot better.

And I did react. I did send an angry letter etc. I did complain. But not on what I thought about what she might be thinking. But about how she presented herself in word and action. Because that is something I can react on. The rest is guesswork.

BTW, after that I found a decent place to be diagnosed. Diagnosis was: mentally sane, and Asperger without a doubt.

Funny thing at that centre, the lady I talked to said, I can only listen to your words, if I start thinking about how you appear to be, I guess wrong.
Quote

and the last example is exactly the same.

Probably for the best because I just dont have the time to explain everything every day of my fkin life.


Probably for the best indeed that you did not explain it further in detail. It is amusing to see how you think about how I think. But also very tiring. And three explanations in a row, I probably would have thought that that was boring. But you never know. Even my own thoughts can surprise me.
I can do upside down chocolate moo things!

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2009, 01:51:41 PM »
well said Hyke. sorry you had a crappy experience. i had one psych who thought she knew enough to un-diagnose me too, claimed i wasn't ADD or asperger. after i got diagnosed i considered sending her a letter telling her i was diagnosed by the top autism expert in the country but i was too lazy to.
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

:blonde:

Offline Tom/Mutate

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Re: Neurotypical
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2009, 01:54:54 PM »
Hyke is a woman?  Respect, we dont normally see the women kicking ass like that.